The Future of F3

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

The irony is of course that the only professionals are those employed by the teams. The drivers are all amateur, in the truest sense of the word, in so much as they are paying to race for the love of the sport, not for an income.

At least Rugby players actually get paid....

Very true. The whole system is arse-about-face, topsy-turvy, broken. Whatever you want to call it...

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Very true. The whole system is arse-about-face, topsy-turvy, broken. Whatever you want to call it...

Yes, and the reason is that the entire industry has become focussed on extracting money from the competitor, the "punter" in Del boy speak, from the moment little Billy is first taken to a kart track.

Nobody has bothered to market the "sport" for decades because why would they bother? The punter pays anyway whether there's 50 spectators or 50,000 so it's a no brainer for the bean counters.

Perhaps they are now going to reap the rewards of taking their collective eyes off the ball.

[CATMAN]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

With regards to the expectations of the financiers, no wonder they expect luxury dining when they are spending £550-750k/season. If costs were dramatically reduced then they wouldn't expect such service. And anyway (I know the answer before I've asked it but) why do you need such treatment when you've paid to sponsor a racing car. If you wanted to eat well, for £600k/annum you could probably have breakfast, lunch and dinner at the Ritz every day, for you and your friends!

UK F3 teams receive very little sponsorship money if any. Parents and backers are buying their seat in the car. Young drivers also budget for driver trainers, diet and fitness guru's on top of their drive fee.
Daddy's that pay out for their little boys racing are doing just that, they are not sponsoring the team they are looking for fame and glory for their kids and eating at the Ritz has zero to do with it, but they expet their kid to be well fed and cared for at the track and expect reasonable treatment for themselves and the drivers family and hangers on!
Spend a week and race weekend with a team and you'll soon see why they need the workforce.
F3 cars may look very similar but there can be vast differences between them and that takes time and data crunching and a lot of work to make the changes within the regulations.
Even if you take into account single bolt wheels and race jacks. try taking four wheels of a car, checking and cleaning them and the brakes and bleeding all 4 calipers between every outing apart from any other work on the car. The engineers will spend many hours on race day going over data logging results and running through the data with the driver to find the extra tenths.
Sorry but the work done by respected formula race team pro's could not be done by one mechanic over a race weekend or test days.
As I pointed out , team truckies normally have a busy role with the cars during races and testing and you'll often find trainee college engineers and mechanics are also busy during race days as well as the outside suppliers engineers and even the team principals. Six people per car for a top outfit is probably nearer the mark. Attention to detail wins races and two guys with a Dallara on a trailer just can't cut it any more!
And most young drivers are never wrong and have no faults, many will soon blame the team and find fault even when it's not there. Once out of the car a driver with Iphone to hand can instantly text or email daddy and mummy and tweet and post to social networks about their result or lack of. A team that is not seen to be giving the car 100% man power and neglects their PR and hospitality is at risk instantly.

[Alex K]

OK than. Why do you guys need a new gen Dallara every three/four years? @edenrace said what is a cost of new Dallara.

Can't savings be done in engine department?! Huge savings?

Look at Indy Lights, IndyCar how long they had their cars in full race trim?

An of top. Some time ago I was wondering around teams in Britcar trying to find suitablew drive for a driver. Quoted fees started from 8k, 8.5k+, up to 15-17k. I have a friend who competes in Britcar, the friend said that with those teams (I wont disclose any names) their fees should be halved and they would still earn enough profit to make it profitable business. My friend also co-owns a team so knowns what he wtalks about. Sometimes in some cases it's a simple greed that boosts team owners.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by CATMAN

F3 cars may look very similar but there can be vast differences between them and that takes time and data crunching and a lot of work to make the changes within the regulations.... The engineers will spend many hours on race day going over data logging results and running through the data with the driver to find the extra tenths.

This is where it's all wrong. A technology driven development race at this level is beyond bonkers. In fact having engineers pore over data in order to figure out ways of optimizing the car within the regs to gain the last few tenths or hundredths of a second is stupid too. Oh and it saps huge amounts of money to boot.

So F3 as it is now just doesn't work.

For the UK, I think the only way forward is to introduce a new premier single seater category. It should be based around spec. cars that have a fixed number of parameter settings, have way more power than grip, and are extremely difficult to drive. The parameter adjustments would optimize the car to a point, but the driver will have a far greater influence on the overall package. A big standard V8 with plenty of poke [e.g. BMW S65 or S85], a chassis with inefficient aero and a heavy dependency on mechanical grip, large slicks with high durable compounds. They should be spectacular to watch, cheap to run and sort the men from the boys.

In terms of promotion... it must be part of the TOCA package, sharing top billing with the Touring Cars. There just isn't enough space to run a programme in competition with TOCA.

[Alex K]

Goo cheap chassis mate, something like FNippons Lola or 1st gen GP2, if they're still on market, not a bad idea. But, that could kill BF3.

[chunterer]

I'm not convinced we need a big banger series to replace F3, but it might be good to have as well as?

At F3 level there really still needs to be something for drivers to develop and learn in above FRenault (should that level still exist anymore!) but beneath the GP2/3.5 level otherwise kids are going to have way too big a jump in power and most of them aren't ready for that after only a couple of seaons in race cars imo.

I'm not advocating GP3 or Super FPA but one of those type of things that has proper management and support might fit the bill with a few tweaks to allow engineering and driver engenuity to come to the fore.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by davyboy

For the UK, I think the only way forward is to introduce a new premier single seater category. It should be based around spec. cars that have a fixed number of parameter settings, have way more power than grip, and are extremely difficult to drive. The parameter adjustments would optimize the car to a point, but the driver will have a far greater influence on the overall package.

Whilst I wouldn't dispute that the above formula would be exciting to watch, the concern to my (non-technical, non-involved) mind is that the primary merit of F3 is that it does form part of the single seater ladder and as such, a radical, British only set of regulations may result in the championship losing signficance in the wider scheme of things (and potentially place it in competiton with the likes of F2 and Auto GP). I guess that given the issues experienced abroad, particularly with the Euro Series, a more co-ordinated approach to regulations may be needed.

Originally Posted by davyboy

In terms of promotion... it must be part of the TOCA package, sharing top billing with the Touring Cars. There just isn't enough space to run a programme in competition with TOCA.

Agreed.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'm not convinced we need a big banger series to replace F3, but it might be good to have as well as?

At F3 level there really still needs to be something for drivers to develop and learn in above FRenault (should that level still exist anymore!) but beneath the GP2/3.5 level otherwise kids are going to have way too big a jump in power and most of them aren't ready for that after only a couple of seaons in race cars imo.

I'm not advocating GP3 or Super FPA but one of those type of things that has proper management and support might fit the bill with a few tweaks to allow engineering and driver engenuity to come to the fore.

It would appear GP3 fills that void in terms of performance level and promotion which is probably why it has a full grid this year.

The question is whether there is room for national FF, FR and F3 series in this country and the answer at the moment would probably be no.

So if the choice is between something like FPA or a spectacular but cheap big banger series, then I think the latter would be better for drivers and spectators.

[bella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It would appear GP3 fills that void in terms of performance level and promotion which is probably why it has a full grid this year.

without knowing what every driver paid for their drive, you can't really use that as a stick to beat f3 with to be fair. they've also decreased the grid size by making the 3rd car optional, something which most teams have done.

*insert usual comments about cost price budgets, regular changes of drivers, artificially low price affecting the market, etc etc*

and seriously, what relevance does a big engine have to f1 nowadays? essentially what you're suggesting is national fr3.5 series....

[steve nielsen]

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...es/fia-f3.aspx

[Alex K]

What do they need to test F2 car? It's same level of racing. Do we really need another 10-12 car racing series?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Alex K

What do they need to test F2 car? It's same level of racing. Do we really need another 10-12 car racing series?

My understanding is that the FIA European F3 Championship will run concurrently with the Euro Series/British races that they are scheduled alongside (with the exception of the Brands races).

As for the need to test an F2 car, I guess the case can be made that it would at least provide a prize opportunity and additional milage for the champion. I can't imagine that F2 will be top of the list of future possibilities for the champion.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

and seriously, what relevance does a big engine have to f1 nowadays? essentially what you're suggesting is national fr3.5 series....

It has no relevance whatsoever to F1. It's just a very cheap and reliable way of getting plenty of power. Much as I like FR3.5 is too expensive for a national series.

[bella]

but that's the cost of doing what you suggest. it's relatively basic motorsport by numbers, that's why it works so well. no rocket science, no silly tyres, granted there's a guillotine drs system but that's it. the basic car cost is €220k. so i don't quite know how you expect them to do it for much cheaper than f3...

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by davyboy

This is where it's all wrong. A technology driven development race at this level is beyond bonkers. In fact having engineers pore over data in order to figure out ways of optimizing the car within the regs to gain the last few tenths or hundredths of a second is stupid too. Oh and it saps huge amounts of money to boot.

So F3 as it is now just doesn't work.

For the UK, I think the only way forward is to introduce a new premier single seater category. It should be based around spec. cars that have a fixed number of parameter settings, have way more power than grip, and are extremely difficult to drive. The parameter adjustments would optimize the car to a point, but the driver will have a far greater influence on the overall package. A big standard V8 with plenty of poke [e.g. BMW S65 or S85], a chassis with inefficient aero and a heavy dependency on mechanical grip, large slicks with high durable compounds. They should be spectacular to watch, cheap to run and sort the men from the boys.

In terms of promotion... it must be part of the TOCA package, sharing top billing with the Touring Cars. There just isn't enough space to run a programme in competition with TOCA.

Once again, I agree. Though I think, like Chunterer said, it should be as well as F3.

Basically what you want are a grid of these:


If Britain were to have a single-seater equivalent of the BTCC, it would give career drivers a place to race big, fast single-seaters around the UK in a 'premier' series. Me and my dad have been dreaming about this for years.

The problem is, there isn't enough money to do it unless you were able to get a massive press deal including TV and coverage in a national, daily newspaper. Then it could work in terms of attracting series sponsors and subsidising entry costs. by offering start money (just like the good ol' days).

Anyway, I'm reminiscing about an age that I wasn't a part of. Carry on...

[EastonNeston]

It's unlikely that any publishing group would get heavily involved in backing a racing series to the extent you want. Most publishing groups are cutting costs where possible, readership & circulation figures are dropping and the number of editorial job, for both writers & photographers is been slashed drastically.
I remember that national f1 & f3000 series have been tried & failed. I sure 'Edenrace' can tell us more about his involvement in uk f3000.

The BF3 media day was good yesterday, with 13 cars & more promised for both today's test & the first round at Oulton Park next weekend. I'm also told, by a very reputable source, that there will be a vastly increased number of engine options for F3 next year. Hopefully BF3 will come through this season, with good competitive racing, and the new engines next year will provide an increased number of competitive cars.
BF3 has has this number of runners before and come back stronger, no reason why that won't happen this time.

[davyboy]

The reason I'm suggesting [my version of] big banger single seaters is because :

o They capture the imagination of the public - 200mph on the Revett Straight !
o They would be challenging to drive.
o They would be an end in themselves, and not just a stepping stone to something else.
o They would be cheap to buy and run.

What I'm talking about is the chassis technology at the level of a Tatuus Formula Renault with a production spec BMW S65 or S85 motor... and rock hard slicks. It would be less aero efficient than that, and slightly bigger and with more up to date safety. It should be possible for this to come in around the £50K to £60K mark.

Promotion is critical and live terrestrial TV coverage, together with plenty of advertising, guest drivers e.g. GP/Indy stars, a different race format etc... all the stuff that SRO don't do.

The reason why the Aurora AFX series and British F2 [aka F3000] didn't work is because the cars themselves were contemporary top level single seaters [albeit past their sell by date] and were far too expensive to run. The concept was flawed before it started. The premise behind this idea here is that it is much cheaper from the word go.

It would be great to have it alongside F3... but as we can see, there just isn't enough room for multiple premier single seater series and it's better to have one well supported one than several poorly supported ones competing against one another.

[chunterer]

It's funny because although F3 and such bigger series are quite logically different they've normally ended up competing especially for domestic sponsorship, coverage etc.

Aurora F1 British 3000 tried to be bigger but couldn't manage it. 3000 took some drivers away F3 ironically because they didn't have enough money for F3 or had been in it too long etc. In 1990 and '91 the series worked quite well, reasonable grids and some decent drivers and it was a shame the tragic death of Paul Warwick took away some of the PR it had established because in '92 it was miserable again but then that was a time of big recession as we have now...

It makes sense for there to be something bigger than F3 in the UK if it is cost effective as there's only soo many places available in F3.5 and GP2 these days and then they're not very affordable. Problem is anything like that would still need to be cheaper than F3, which is a bit daft if it is supposed to be above F3?!

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Once again, I agree. Though I think, like Chunterer said, it should be as well as F3.

Basically what you want are a grid of these:


If Britain were to have a single-seater equivalent of the BTCC, it would give career drivers a place to race big, fast single-seaters around the UK in a 'premier' series. Me and my dad have been dreaming about this for years.

The problem is, there isn't enough money to do it unless you were able to get a massive press deal including TV and coverage in a national, daily newspaper. Then it could work in terms of attracting series sponsors and subsidising entry costs. by offering start money (just like the good ol' days).

Anyway, I'm reminiscing about an age that I wasn't a part of. Carry on...

I've always wondered why there's no "British Indycar" series that ran in the UK & Ireland with the size of the racing industry there. Not using the term Indycar to say it should be called that, but more in terms of a mostly one or two-national series that raced around the country and to give guys like say a Justin Wilson a place to race where he can keep his name that either can't afford F1 or aren't quite good enough for it. It'd be the British Superbike Series to F1's MotoGP.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Problem is anything like that would still need to be cheaper than F3, which is a bit daft if it is supposed to be above F3?!

I believe it's very easy to make a faster [in a straight line] single seater much cheaper than F3. It won't go round corners on rails, but then that's not what we want anyway. A stock S85 engine will give north of 500hp, is dirt cheap and ultra reliable. All they need are dry sump kits.

The other option is for the FIA to make Formula 3 a low-powered spec. formula, but then it's competing against Formula Renault, GP3 etc... ... and we're back where we started again with too many low powered junior single seater series.

[Alex K]

Works well in Italy, they have their Auto GP living its own life along with F3, Renault ALPS and whatever else they have. Thing is, as above such a series needs to be cheaper than F3.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Problem is anything like that would still need to be cheaper than F3, which is a bit daft if it is supposed to be above F3?!

That's only because we've got used to each step on the ladder being more expensive. There's no reason a 'Formula 5000-type' series has to be more expensive than F3. In fact, you want it to be massively cheaper. You want it to be like the BTCC or IndyCar; a top domestic series where drivers can make a career for themselves.

Come on Davyboy, let's get to work

[chunterer]

Your point about top billing uk series is good but is the current BTCC really still a decent career option?!

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Your point about top billing uk series is good but is the current BTCC really still a decent career option?!

I admit the BTCC is hardly a career option at the moment (too many pay drivers). But it used to be and it will be again; economies like its go in cycles.

BTCC for saloons, BGT for sportscars and BF5000 for single-seaters. It would be brilliant although massively idealised.