What's happening to motorsport?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Piglet

You guys seem to be going around in big circles where everything is someone else's fault. It's not an attractive read to be honest.

As a volunteer official who gives their time for no reward, it's quite amusing to see your approach to all of this - I suspect it won't endear you to the average marshal who pays for his/her fuel to get to and from a circuit, provides their own accommodation (either a room or tent/caravan), provides their own food, then works outside for at least 9 hours a day with few breaks and then goes to work on a Monday morning. They do this for their own enjoyment as well as to allow you to do what you supposedly love doing. If all of the people involved in motorsport, including many criticised by implication in this thread, were paid a market rate for what they give to motorsport, we'd all be finding other hobbies as the market could not stand the cost.

AT LAST!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by midgetman

That's what I said later on, do keep up at the back.....but they'd have to be barcoded like the airline tickets so they're not re-used and passed around your mates (looking at it from the organiser's POV). Hand held barcode scanners are cheap as chips these days.

A good quality handheld PDA with barcode scanner and complete with service warranty, charging cradle, etc will cost you something in the region of £1000 each. I'm talking about a proper rugged device that is designed to be used outdoors in all weathers. You'll need sufficient of these to cover every entrance gate.

But that's only part of the story. You need a back-end system to record which barcodes have been scanned, check that the numbers are valid and that they have not been used already. As you have multiple scanners and multiple gates you need to link them all via a wireless network.

All of which is a significant investment, far more from what you describe as 'cheap as chips'. It's like me suggesting all you need to go racing is a couple of gallons of petrol.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by redshoes

A good quality handheld PDA with barcode scanner and complete with service warranty, charging cradle, etc will cost you something in the region of £1000 each. I'm talking about a proper rugged device that is designed to be used outdoors in all weathers. You'll need sufficient of these to cover every entrance gate.

But that's only part of the story. You need a back-end system to record which barcodes have been scanned, check that the numbers are valid and that they have not been used already. As you have multiple scanners and multiple gates you need to link them all via a wireless network.

All of which is a significant investment, far more from what you describe as 'cheap as chips'. It's like me suggesting all you need to go racing is a couple of gallons of petrol.

As we keep getting told, It's only a small amount of money compared with all the other expenses we pay out so it doesn't matter.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

That's what I said later on, do keep up at the back.....but they'd have to be barcoded like the airline tickets so they're not re-used and passed around your mates (looking at it from the organiser's POV). Hand held barcode scanners are cheap as chips these days.

Last time I parked at the airport they didn't even need my prepaid ticket, just said "Welcome Mr Tyler, we've been expecting you" as I arrived because I turned up in OE02XXX. Mind you, even that would be a bit of an imposition to some, "it's my right to change tow vehicles".

Or the other way is like Clay Pigeon do it. Turn up before 0930 you get in for free, after that everyone pays - driver, mechanic or Uncle Tom Cobbleigh.

Max, we have had this sort of debate before..Doing away with Timekeepers was an idea, but, as what is being proposed by the MSA that will not really happen because in sport, you need licences officials to penalise people and you cannot have a teenage lad dishing out time penalties (hence new rules coming through in Karting....also ..hand held scanners together with printing your own tickets is not going to bring down the cost of hiring the track, it will probably add to the cost actually as that sort of technology is (as already said on here) for a few tickets ...just plain silly.

Dtype you ARE a customer in my eyes and indeed I should imagine many others as well. I always prefer to refer to our entrants as customers...you are, you are paying for a product, service call it what you will but this thread has indeed gone full circle, with as Tim said about a week ago, the same stuff said as before.

That doesnt mean you have to accept "the status quo" but as I said earlier...you all need to join together and create your pressure, you need to tell your governing body how you feeland put proposals forward to them, creative ideas to better what you think is wrong, but more importantly, prove that you can make it better your way...if you can prove it can be better in the future through innovation then that is a completely different thing than talking about "the good ole days" and how it was...the world has moved on...so should we I think.

[Minicross424]

Well there have been a fair few posts since my last one!
I have to say the attitude of a few on here stinks, mostly the ones who seem to be saying "this is how it is, this is how we justify it, if you don't like it bugger off"
Motorsport is a rich man's game? Do not totally buy into that, if it was true then grass roots motorsport would not even exist and it would just be aload of playboys and girls strutting there stuff.
Regards us being customers, yes agree with that but I would like to make the point that my father and I run a plumbing company and due to the current situation out there have reduced both labour charges and mark up on materials to ensure we survive despite insurance, materials, fuel etc going up in price.
However I have not seen circuit hire nor entry fees drop so who is out of touch?

[IAN #51]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

Well there have been a fair few posts since my last one!
I have to say the attitude of a few on here stinks, mostly the ones who seem to be saying "this is how it is, this is how we justify it, if you don't like it bugger off"
Motorsport is a rich man's game? Do not totally buy into that, if it was true then grass roots motorsport would not even exist and it would just be aload of playboys and girls strutting there stuff.
Regards us being customers, yes agree with that but I would like to make the point that my father and I run a plumbing company and due to the current situation out there have reduced both labour charges and mark up on materials to ensure we survive despite insurance, materials, fuel etc going up in price.
However I have not seen circuit hire nor entry fees drop so who is out of touch?

+1

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

Well there have been a fair few posts since my last one!
I have to say the attitude of a few on here stinks, mostly the ones who seem to be saying "this is how it is, this is how we justify it, if you don't like it bugger off"
Motorsport is a rich man's game? Do not totally buy into that, if it was true then grass roots motorsport would not even exist and it would just be aload of playboys and girls strutting there stuff.
Regards us being customers, yes agree with that but I would like to make the point that my father and I run a plumbing company and due to the current situation out there have reduced both labour charges and mark up on materials to ensure we survive despite insurance, materials, fuel etc going up in price.
However I have not seen circuit hire nor entry fees drop so who is out of touch?

+2

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by redshoes

A good quality handheld PDA with barcode scanner and complete with service warranty, charging cradle, etc will cost you something in the region of £1000 each. I'm talking about a proper rugged device that is designed to be used outdoors in all weathers.

so how come every van driver of every courier company carries and uses one?

Originally Posted by redshoes

You'll need sufficient of these to cover every entrance gate.

That'll be two then...

Originally Posted by redshoes

But that's only part of the story. You need a back-end system to record which barcodes have been scanned, check that the numbers are valid and that they have not been used already.

You sure you haven't been bamboozled by an IT salesman sometime in the past?

Originally Posted by redshoes

As you have multiple scanners and multiple gates you need to link them all via a wireless network.

Thirty quid (or a tenner on ebay) 3G dongle , sorry 60 as there are two.

[Dan Friel]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

Well there have been a fair few posts since my last one!
I have to say the attitude of a few on here stinks, mostly the ones who seem to be saying "this is how it is, this is how we justify it, if you don't like it bugger off"
Motorsport is a rich man's game? Do not totally buy into that, if it was true then grass roots motorsport would not even exist and it would just be aload of playboys and girls strutting there stuff.
Regards us being customers, yes agree with that but I would like to make the point that my father and I run a plumbing company and due to the current situation out there have reduced both labour charges and mark up on materials to ensure we survive despite insurance, materials, fuel etc going up in price.
However I have not seen circuit hire nor entry fees drop so who is out of touch?

Also agree. The head in the sand approach won't work and will eventually catch you out. Criticism for challenging "status-quo" is bonkers in my book, every other business has had to do this for the last five years and continues to do so - just to survive.

I still believe it's too diluted for the current climate, and there's no easy solution. Perhaps some clubs / events / circuits will disappear and that will sharpen things up?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Max, we have had this sort of debate before..Doing away with Timekeepers was an idea, but, as what is being proposed by the MSA that will not really happen because in sport, you need licences officials to penalise people and you cannot have a teenage lad dishing out time penalties (hence new rules coming through in Karting....also ..hand held scanners together with printing your own tickets is not going to bring down the cost of hiring the track, it will probably add to the cost actually as that sort of technology is (as already said on here) for a few tickets ...just plain silly.

.

Woah Claire!!!!

I never, ever, anywhere said the use of handheld scanners would reduce the cost of hiring the track! I simply agreed that if anyone really wanted to, technology could be used to speed things up. However, I also said that closing date for entries ten days in advance is the RIGHT thing to do to give organisers chance to organise so I'm actually agreeing with you for once!

Please don't put words in my mouth, I'm quite capable of putting my foot there myself.

However, Here we go again. "Everything is for the best in this the best of all possible worlds" so we won't change anything.

There's so much that can be done with a decent IT system that the investment will recoup itself. But it's a sideshow, just one example of how things can be changed for the better.

Strikes me that when I get attacked so vehemently for what is basically a throwaway remark on a side issue that there is agreement that the core needs fixing but it's easier to attack peripheries than deal with the real problem. Look, I reckon it costs the average driver a grand or more per race if you average everything out over time. If you went to a hotel or restaurant brandishing £1000 for an afternoon, what kind of service would you expect there?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

If you went to a hotel or restaurant brandishing £1000 for an afternoon, what kind of service would you expect there?

Depends what kind of service you were looking for.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

.

I still believe it's too diluted for the current climate, and there's no easy solution. Perhaps some clubs / events / circuits will disappear and that will sharpen things up?

+1

This discussion started with the BRSCC. It's clearly not performing, it must shape up or it will be shipped out.

[IAN #51]

I self spanner built my own camper and trailer and I worked out my average cost per race over the 2011 season to be approx £700 per race

My employer cut our overtime rates in order to cut there rates to remain competitive it seems some are more prepared to understand the fragile state off the world economy !

I fear myself like so many others will have to throw in the towel before long as it just not feasible any more !

Ian

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Look, I reckon it costs the average driver a grand or more per race if you average everything out over time. If you went to a hotel or restaurant brandishing £1000 for an afternoon, what kind of service would you expect there?

I think that's actually a bit harsh on race organisers. If we were all competing in arrive-and-drive-all-inclusive race meetings at £1000 a pop then you would have a point. In reality though, that money is spread over parts, fuel, accommodation, etc. The actual part going directly to those organising an event on a track is just the entry fee. So for the sake of proportion, lets only consider the service available at £200-£300 a night hotels

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

so how come every van driver of every courier company carries and uses one?

Because even at £1000 each, they still represent a significant saving over having an army of back-office staff shuffling paperwork on the each of the hundreds of thousands of parcels they deal with.

It's a question of scale. The sort of systems you are talking about make economic sense at somewhere like Wembley stadium where you have 90,000 spectators on a regular basis, but less so at a race circuits where you are sometimes lucky to get 90 spectators

Originally Posted by MGDavid

You sure you haven't been bamboozled by an IT salesman sometime in the past?

No, but I do work developing systems using this type of technology so I've got a pretty good idea what I'm taking about!

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by dtype38

I think that's actually a bit harsh on race organisers. If we were all competing in arrive-and-drive-all-inclusive race meetings at £1000 a pop then you would have a point. In reality though, that money is spread over parts, fuel, accommodation, etc. The actual part going directly to those organising an event on a track is just the entry fee. So for the sake of proportion, lets only consider the service available at £200-£300 a night hotels

Reasonable Comment, we'll get rid of Tim's implied dancing girls I have had pretty good service in £79 Premier Inns.

Although it costs nothing to have a £1000 attitude, even if only charging £300.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Because even at £1000 each, they still represent a significant saving over having an army of back-office staff shuffling paperwork on the each of the hundreds of thousands of parcels they deal with.

It's a question of scale. The sort of systems you are talking about make economic sense at somewhere like Wembley stadium where you have 90,000 spectators on a regular basis, but less so at a race circuits where you are sometimes lucky to get 90 spectators


No, but I do work developing systems using this type of technology so I've got a pretty good idea what I'm taking about!

The van ones are expensive of course because they are 3G or whatever, we want something that is WiFi or even wired.

Look, it was a throwaway remark but look here:
http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/33078...var=sbar&cbt=y

Under £100 each. Yeah they're probably cheapies but i bet you can get good deals from the professionals. Let's not get into a debate about technology that isn't needed because its not wanted, please, it's diluting the main discussion.

Oh, and we weren't talking about spectators we were addressing the problems of tickets to drivers. e-ticketing or not, I still think closing entries 10 days before the event isn't unreasonable!

[flagwaver]

Just beginning to wonder where this thread is going, the cost/usefulness of scanners/bar code readers will not make a jot of difference to the circuit hire fees.

There is no doubt that the biggest single cost for running a meeting is the circuit hire, but at present there certainly seems to be no sign of that decreasing. And that is the one thing a lot of clubs can't control.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

Just beginning to wonder where this thread is going, the cost/usefulness of scanners/bar code readers will not make a jot of difference to the circuit hire fees.

There is no doubt that the biggest single cost for running a meeting is the circuit hire, but at present there certainly seems to be no sign of that decreasing. And that is the one thing a lot of clubs can't control.

Which was my point exactly

Max.I never put anything in your mouth and I was NOT attacking YOU, and just as you can claim it was a throwaway comment, my posting started "Max...we have had this SORT of debate before" as in we have discussed ways and ideas of lowering the cost of motorsport, I am sorry but we have! and "sort" of signifies that I am generalising and NOT being specific...sorry if that offended you....not intentional.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by garcon

Let's not turn this into a them and us between competitors and officials/marshals.

EVERYONE involved in amateur motorsport is involved because they WANT to be. The only differences between those driving, mechanicing, officiating and marshalling tend to be in terms of specific skills and budget.

I don't buy any sob story from any competitor about how difficult and time consuming and expensive it all is. Equally, although competitors should be grateful that there are those willing to organise and marshal their events, I don't believe any marshal who claims they're only doing it for the drivers.

I don't think its a sob story at all, and we all recognise the investment in time and effort that the marshals and officials make but each race at club level cost the competitor between £500-£1000 and believe me that is a a major drain on resources and sometimes difficult to justify (even to those who you seem to think are priveleged) but we still do it because we love it (and are probably addicted)

Originally Posted by garcon

Some of it does. And some of them need to remember how privileged they are to be able to pursue such an expensive hobby.

Which does link to another point - many drivers are well off because they have high earning, responsible careers. Which surely means at least some of them have the skills and talents to help run amateur motorsport rather than simply sit back and complain about it.

I don't consider myself priveleged at all - I, like many, am an ordinary bloke with an ordinary job. I don't earn mega bucks but I am "fortunate" not to have kids (a major drain on resources in my observation!) and I have made choices in life which mean I don't have an expensive house and big mortgage, I don't go on holiday, I don't buy expensive clothes etc etc. I know plenty of people who are plumbers, car mechanics, shop fitters etc etc and do what they can to afford to take part.

I have a responsible job (doesn't mean well paid at all) and I do, like many, try and put something back by helping out on club committees etc. many of the clubs run becuase of volunteers and those volunteers often include drivers and family. Sorry if I'm stating the bleading obvious but I do think that some of the above posts have become "them and us".

[midgetman]

OK so we've streamlined procedures so that entries can be more efficient which will help the hard-pressed organiser as well. Great start.

Next, how to make the whole shenanigans more appealing for drivers, psectators and marshals. No-one likes watching just a handful of cars droning round. The aim is to entice more entries, more watchers and engender more interest. Which will generate more revenue and help to keep prices down. This I think is the crux of the matter - make race meetings more exciting for all the stakeholders and the income will arrive.

Take the size of grids themselves, almost designed to put off the spectator. Some races are pretty dire and only serve to provide a suitable time to get a burger. IMO amalgamations should be the norm, and if drivers don't like it then join a series that doesn't suffer from them or entice more entrants to their series.

It's time minimum grid sizes were introduced. If the "Production Whizzbang Championship for cars built between 1995 and 1997 driven by blokes called Fred" can't rustle up enough drivers, the race should be thrown open at reduced rate to other competitors and if that's not enough then further to any drivers with complementary cars. If the championship attracts more "guests" than regulars then it's clearly not wanted and should be canned anyway. Maybe those guests can be converted to the Production Whizzbang races, so a win-win all round!

Sits back donning tin hat.

[Al Weyman]

I know we have harped on this again and again but the entry for the forthcoming Oulton round is a whopping £245 for one race and for that reason I will not be attending apart from its on a Saturday and 200 miles away so means attacking the M1 on a Friday evening and another halfday off. Do you not think this is now a tad excessive, come on now something is going to have to give here lets not pretend it won't. Also Oulton will sling the competitors out Saturday evening and not let them camp over unless they pay some extortionate fee for a single security guard (presumable they dont have one the rest of the week) so who wants to do a hard days racing then turn round and drive 200 miles, this attitude from track owners is most unhelpful as well.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by andy97

I don't think its a sob story at all, and we all recognise the investment in time and effort that the marshals and officials make but each race at club level cost the competitor between £500-£1000 and believe me that is a a major drain on resources and sometimes difficult to justify (even to those who you seem to think are priveleged) but we still do it because we love it (and are probably addicted)...

I don't consider myself priveleged at all - I, like many, am an ordinary bloke with an ordinary job. I don't earn mega bucks but I am "fortunate" not to have kids (a major drain on resources in my observation!) and I have made choices in life which mean I don't have an expensive house and big mortgage, I don't go on holiday, I don't buy expensive clothes etc etc. I know plenty of people who are plumbers, car mechanics, shop fitters etc etc and do what they can to afford to take part.

I have a responsible job (doesn't mean well paid at all) and I do, like many, try and put something back by helping out on club committees etc. many of the clubs run becuase of volunteers and those volunteers often include drivers and family. Sorry if I'm stating the bleading obvious but I do think that some of the above posts have become "them and us".

I guess being someone with a little (and I do mean only a little) experience on all sides of the fence, I'm just trying to find a consensus and show how some things might be seen from different viewpoints.

Andy, your comments are entirely fair and show a number of things. You love what you do and are willing to make sacrifices to keep doing it. You also respect what is done to make motorsport happen and are willing to do your bit to help. And, quite rightly, you feel justified in questioning how things are run where you see issues. In my experience, this echoes the position of the vast majority of competitors, which is why I think ultimately better answers will be found.

It's all too easy to moan on an internet forum - and it's equally easy to assume the moaners aren't also trying to do their bit to help improve things.

[SWCRacing]

What's wrong with Motorsport?

MSV announces BRDC Formula 4 championship for 2013....

Discuss.....

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

What's wrong with Motorsport?

MSV announces BRDC Formula 4 championship for 2013....

Discuss.....

I think actually your post demonstrates part of the problem, everyone thinks that what THEY do is right and what others do is wrong.

There are plenty who will tell you that there is a lot wrong with current single seater racing in the UK, it's stonkingly expensive and is not anything like as successful as it was say 12 years ago.

Why is that? Probably a discussion that I wouldn't want to have in public.

Let's not knock people for trying to effect change - it may just keep the established series on their toes, or are we suggesting that no club or organisation should be able to start anything new?

I actually think it's irrelevant to most of the posters here, it's a discussion that I'm sure will happen in the single seater forum.

Edited to add: being discussed here http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...87#post3134687