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Old 3 Jul 2020, 21:09 (Ref:3985403)   #6601
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from Jordan

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The offer to drive was still there from both BMW and West Surrey Racing, but thinking about it over and over, I just wasn’t prepared to take a risk so big. I’ve got to think big picture with it, not just with my family but with my business, and long-term I just can’t put any of that in jeopardy
IMO sounds like he was asked to put out a lot of his own money and decided not to do it



and we have this claim

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Autosport understands that in order to ease the worries of teams amid the financial fallout of the coronavirus, BTCC organiser TOCA is now permitting a maximum of two changes of driver per car during the season, instead of one.
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Old 3 Jul 2020, 21:23 (Ref:3985406)   #6602
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Sensible decision by TOCA in my view. As teams and drivers are struggling to get their budget together, it’s going to tough for some drivers to string a whole season together
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 05:13 (Ref:3985446)   #6603
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Have you read the whole post or just seen 'underwhelming' word? Yes, a 4-time champion in a car that won 11 races seems underwhelming given his teammate is a guy who hasn't won a race and seemed an odd-one out. As a third driver he was a very good and solid completion of the team but WSR is going to feel lack of AJ badly unless Oliphant steps up significantly.
Jordan and Turkington were a very power-duo and they shared these whopping 11 wins between them. It's a thing that won't be replicated this year. So yes, it will be underwhelming especially comparing to 2019 situation in which there were two top drivers and the third solid one.
Where it will hit WSR is in the teams and constructors championship, to a team like WSR the construcotrs and teams title is arguably as important as the drivers title as it is their CV that goes on..

WSR will miss AJ as he and Turks pushed each other which in turn pushed the whole team forward. Sometimes that dynamic can be destructive, but managed well, with respect on both sides, it can be hugely beneficial to the team and car.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 07:31 (Ref:3985453)   #6604
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Now I'd suggest that the costs of these current machines is somewhere near where they were with ST.
Nowhere close.

Plus, you can use the same car for five years.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 07:36 (Ref:3985455)   #6605
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Gow is hopeful they can run in front of crowds
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 07:56 (Ref:3985462)   #6606
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Originally Posted by touring fan01 View Post
you really think the top teams are not far from spending 3-4 million per car??!!

with respect i really dont know what planet your on
Thanks for that. I see businesses doing what they can to improve their positions on a pretty much daily basis. On this planet. So don't be condescending. If you think they are spending much less then fine. But I put it to you that by standardising all those bits it hasn't made things cheaper.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 08:25 (Ref:3985467)   #6607
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Thanks for that. I see businesses doing what they can to improve their positions on a pretty much daily basis. On this planet. So don't be condescending. If you think they are spending much less then fine. But I put it to you that by standardising all those bits it hasn't made things cheaper.
If you want to run then standardised parts can make things a little bit cheaper. If you want to run at the front there is no way in the world it saves a lot of money.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 08:47 (Ref:3985471)   #6608
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So, if a driver has to bring (say) £200k to a car just to run it who pays for the organisation to run it? Who pays for the maintemance, engine and gearbox rebuilds etc. Yes living the chassis for 5 years helps but development costs an arm and a leg. So I stick by my original thinking that these are not cheap low cost vehicles.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 09:19 (Ref:3985477)   #6609
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Thanks for that. I see businesses doing what they can to improve their positions on a pretty much daily basis. On this planet. So don't be condescending. If you think they are spending much less then fine. But I put it to you that by standardising all those bits it hasn't made things cheaper.
so you are still saying that the cost of running btcc car now is nearly the same as ST
then i will be condescending. you live on cloud cuckoo land im afraid

its not even 20% of the cost of ST when top teams were spending 3-4 million per car!

but i cant be bothered arguing the point anymore. if you want to think that the cost of btcc is now nearly the same as the 90's ST then i will leave you to it.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 09:21 (Ref:3985479)   #6610
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Ok, Carry on.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 09:46 (Ref:3985485)   #6611
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Ok, Carry on.
Best to learn not to argue with the fan boys who think the BTCC is a pro series, costs £20k and doesn’t have ‘controlled’ racing. It’s not worth it!
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 09:46 (Ref:3985486)   #6612
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So, if a driver has to bring (say) £200k to a car just to run it who pays for the organisation to run it? Who pays for the maintemance, engine and gearbox rebuilds etc. Yes living the chassis for 5 years helps but development costs an arm and a leg. So I stick by my original thinking that these are not cheap low cost vehicles.
kinda inclined to go with peter albeit not to the same extent - they are not cheap, especially for what they are.

the thing that reflects that for me? no real cost cutting efforts from the organisers for this season, even though there's several drivers dropping out for financial reasons. i guess as the lead series they have a lot of contractual obligations, but have a look at the minis - they've realised a lot of their competitors are running on far less money than they'd projected, and have reduced the number of rounds accordingly. that's had the effect of spreading the cost of competing across the year more evenly when competitors (and their sponsors) are likely coming out of a period where they've been earning far less than usual, if anything at all.

toca have created this issue themselves. teams in all series have reasonably steady cashflows, albeit irregular compared to a lot of businesses. lockdown has meant they've had very little coming in, and now they're expected to pay for almost half the season in one month?
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 09:50 (Ref:3985487)   #6613
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Yes, I'm willing to accept that my sums may be exaggerated but not by that much. As an amateur in historics I know how much it costs to run a small team and prep and build a historic touring car for a season. And I'm not paying for the driver!
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 10:06 (Ref:3985490)   #6614
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its not even 20% of the cost of ST when top teams were spending 3-4 million per car!
To put your figures into perspective,
20% of 4 million is £800k.
A driver who was looking to pay for a seat in one of the lower order cars in 2016 was offering a range of sponsorship packages which, if they were all taken, would amount to nearly £1.4 million.

Given that that was just to pay for one season's drive in a car not expected to break into the top ten regularly, do you still think teams at the front of the grid run their cars for between £600k and £800k?
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 11:33 (Ref:3985503)   #6615
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Did he really expect them all to be taken though? If they were all taken how much would he give to the team and how much would be his own wages?

I have no actual idea of the running costs of a BTCC team but from what a BTCC driver has said on other forums recently ("it’s not orders of magnitude above even Clio’s or Ginettas") I would be surprised if it's really seven figures per car in the midfield.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 11:52 (Ref:3985507)   #6616
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Where it will hit WSR is in the teams and constructors championship, to a team like WSR the construcotrs and teams title is arguably as important as the drivers title as it is their CV that goes on..

WSR will miss AJ as he and Turks pushed each other which in turn pushed the whole team forward. Sometimes that dynamic can be destructive, but managed well, with respect on both sides, it can be hugely beneficial to the team and car.
That's exactly what I meant and I'd say WSR really did manage the Turks-AJ duo well and it paid off.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 12:12 (Ref:3985513)   #6617
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So, if a driver has to bring (say) £200k to a car just to run it who pays for the organisation to run it? Who pays for the maintemance, engine and gearbox rebuilds etc. Yes living the chassis for 5 years helps but development costs an arm and a leg. So I stick by my original thinking that these are not cheap low cost vehicles.
You are talking about two different things, first of all you said cost to build a car was similar to Super Touring, now you are talking about season costs. To build a complete NGTC car, you are looking at £300k-£350k. Top teams require a budget of around £600k from the drivers for each car. Some teams are likely to want around £300k. Team Hard are probably one of the cheapest rides, but that doesn't include testing etc. Some include crash damage, some want money on top when it happens.
The Super Tourer engines were £50k each at one point, probably a lot more by 2000. NGTC engines were around £25k at the beginning and probably not much more now.
Super Tourers were built with a lot of expensive, specialist materials such as carbon fibre and tungsten for strength and lightness. NGTC does not allow for the use of such materials. I have an aluminium suspension component from a WSR Mondeo, that would have taken a lot of expensive in house design and manufacturing. NGTC cars require none of that. All suspension is built from off the shelf items and mounted on off the shelf subframes.
Basically the teams are restricted to the shared items as far as development is concerned. Where as the Super Tourers were free to develop as much or as often as they liked. Todays costs are nothing like the expense of the Super Touring days.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 12:24 (Ref:3985518)   #6618
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I think I was referring to overall expenditure but as you wish.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 12:34 (Ref:3985522)   #6619
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Given the amount of scrutiny BMR's finances received on this forum, then some of the experts here must surely know exactly what it costs to run a car at the front of the grid?
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 12:47 (Ref:3985525)   #6620
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£600k per season in the BMR Subaru days. Plus testing!
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 12:59 (Ref:3985531)   #6621
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So, that's £1.2M plus the driver fees? Add in overheads and you are coming back to serious wonga.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 13:16 (Ref:3985538)   #6622
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So, that's £1.2M plus the driver fees? Add in overheads and you are coming back to serious wonga.
How do you get £1.2M from £600k?

A drivers budget will pay for their seasons racing, any testing they may take part in and possibly crash damage. It will pay for all the teams costs. Take out everything and the team should make a profit.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 13:17 (Ref:3985539)   #6623
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I see Jordan has been enlisted to do some running in the hybrid.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 13:24 (Ref:3985540)   #6624
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How do you get £1.2M from £600k?

A drivers budget will pay for their seasons racing, any testing they may take part in and possibly crash damage. It will pay for all the teams costs. Take out everything and the team should make a profit.
Two cars.
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Old 4 Jul 2020, 13:27 (Ref:3985541)   #6625
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How do you get £1.2M from £600k?
Because it was stated that it cost £600k to run a car, and most teams have two cars.
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