Over (?) Development of Historic Racing Cars

[zefarelly]

Sounds like a shocker, well done to everyone involved for getting him safely to hospital as quickly as possible, here's to a speedy and full recovery.

a timely reminder perhaps that old tin foil cars are getting faster by the week but no safer.

looking at the top saloons, they're a good 10% faster than in period, and thats being driven (all respect due) by unpaid/self financing hobbyists. That is significant.

[john ruston]

Not only is it significant it's B.S.
Shows what nonsense it is to develop these cars that eventually become to powerful and with performance that far outstrips the weekend warriors that conduct them.Seems that cars before 1970 are usable by anyone but with the advent this year of featherweight E Types (they used to be called Lightweight)and more powerful engines even that is questionable .Where is it all going?Newish thread called for!

[Peter Mallett]

The above posts are copied from the Brands Hatch Masters thread and refer to the accident in the Interseries Revival race.

Thoughts anyone?

[Al Weyman]

Yeah have a miniumum weight and be done, that way excessive lightening is not worthwhile. Another thing on these old cars is the old rust bug, I dont care how much someone has paid for them I bet there is corrosion in a lot of them racing as I have seen evidence when even some seemingly immaculate cars have crashed. I have also seen a 'restored' Mk 2 Cortina Twin Cam that had bloody concrete in the chassis and was completly ****ed and the bloke paid £20k for it as a road car!

[zefarelly]

well we've already done to death the development subject, there doesn't appear to be a workable solution.

others are far better qualified to comment on safety of very high performance single seaters and sports racers than I ever will be.

All I will say is we are by and large free to fabricate and modify what the hell we like, that does include safety critical items. I shiver at the thought of some cut and shut parts I see.

I've been to great lengths to produce a few items, I did it in the same way I used to operate working for the MoD, and wouldn't sell them until I was entirely convinced of their design and manufacture quality, and they'd been thoroughly tested . . . I do know other people have tried and some have failed, fortunately in workshops and driving off trailers! which begs the question, how safe are some cars out there, even compared to original/standard ?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

looking at the top saloons, they're a good 10% faster than in period, and thats being driven (all respect due) by unpaid/self financing hobbyists. That is significant.

It was this point that I though worthy of reply. You are comparing with those who were racing professionally in period and indeed some still are with the weekend warriors. And those good "ol boys" also are going faster in similar cars. But it is IMO also true that there are some very talented drivers in historics that would have probably been quick in period too.

But the major point may be the safety equipment. We have fireproof overalls, roll cages, foam filled tanks, etc. which must make things psychologically easier than back in the day.

Would that contribute to over cooking the cars?

Al, the thread is not about rusty shells being put onto a track, its about cars built specifically to race and in particular 1960's Sports Racers. However the rule applies equally to touring cars and GTs etc.

[Al Weyman]

If you are talking sports racers wernt the Lola T70 and other CanAm cars considered unsafe overpowered beasts even in period?

[john ruston]

Peter-Not so sure about the wonderful drivers in Historics,They are has beens or never has beens nothing else.That's it.The cars are quicker and the people driving them not as skilled as in period.Good thing the safety of circuits has improved or there would so many more big shunts.Back to basics,the Simon Hadfield thread,and several before.Who is going to draw a line in the sand before some unsuspecting bloke thinking that he can drive has a big one and bringing draconian rules that will stop lots of things we now enjoy.

[zefarelly]

I think there are a few reasonably talented drivers out there, but its largely irrelevant.

Peters point is a good one, the phsycological safety factor of a few off the shelf bits must definitely be a factor

as is the 'blinkers of incincability' which it may be argued is sold by organisers in enticing people to be like their heros

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

If you are talking sports racers wernt the Lola T70 and other CanAm cars considered unsafe overpowered beasts even in period?

Fair point Al.

Originally Posted by john ruston

Peter-Not so sure about the wonderful drivers in Historics,They are has beens or never has beens nothing else.That's it.The cars are quicker and the people driving them not as skilled as in period.Good thing the safety of circuits has improved or there would so many more big shunts.Back to basics,the Simon Hadfield thread,and several before.Who is going to draw a line in the sand before some unsuspecting bloke thinking that he can drive has a big one and bringing draconian rules that will stop lots of things we now enjoy.

There may not be any World Champs in historics but there are some ex professionals and they were no slouches. Likewise there are some very good amateurs and if the cars are going quicker and as you suggest it may be technology rather than skill then there will be no controlling the development.

At the risk of sounding morbid Bruce McLaren died forty years ago last weekend testing one of those beasts.

[john ruston]

We are agreeing.
They WERE no slouches, these ex professionals
Draw a line in sand and stop development if possible.
The cars as they are are plenty quick enough for virtually all the drivers now in Hysterics.

[jonners]

Stirling Moss has been banging on about the contempt of danger issue created by modern safety measures - it's a big subject but is relevant to weeken warriors i feel.

In period if anyone turned up with a sports-racer it was fair to assume it was relatively new.

Scrutineering is a relatively cursory matter even at high profile meetings and isn't designed to weed out old racers that could be full of fatigue, corrosion and poor damage repair.

Shouldn't any racing car that has been recommissioned be subject to a proper engineer's report before it's allowed out to race?? I saw a scrute at a hillclimb (very tame in comparsion) getting no end of grief from just about everyone because he asked when some very ratty old magnesium wheels on an old Fiat had last been crack tested. There may be a time when we all regret not taking this seriously.

I hasten to add - with specific reference to the incident that prompted this thread - that I know absolutely nothing of the incident, the car or driver and am not trying to suggest that the car wasn't fit for purpose - my point is that there must be a lot of racing cars out there with components and so forth out of life when they were wheeled out of the museum.

[GORDON STREETER]

I saw an XR3I fail scrutineering at Spa on rot (not just rust) around the front top suspension mounts.
I would have failed it on an MOT, but presumably it had been raced in the UK for a while without being picked up ?

[Al Weyman]

Thats just plain ridiculous Gordon.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by jonners

Scrutineering is a relatively cursory matter even at high profile meetings and isn't designed to weed out old racers that could be full of fatigue, corrosion and poor damage repair..

Thats in reference to drivers I presume

as most cars are better than new in condition at the posher do's these days

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Thats in reference to drivers I presume

as most cars are better than new in condition at the posher do's these days

[terence]

As I've said before,the really bent cars have been built specifically for GW/ Spa six hours,all it takes is for these organiser's to have the ball's to chuck the offending cars out BEFORE they race.OK,sure cheating has been around since day one of motor racing,but with the advent of the Revival being,for whatever reason,the one to win at all costs,cheating has never been so blatantly obvious!
Bare in mind that 'in period' most cars did not have roll cages,plumbed in extinguishers or,in some case's,even a seat belt.Most cars had the standard car seat fitted,appreciably heavier than what we use these days,and yet the cars are considerably lighter than they ever were!
Watching the two Griffs [to name just two of the regulars]at brands yesterday brought home just how ridiculous the bending of regulations has become,totally stupid!!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by jonners

Shouldn't any racing car that has been recommissioned be subject to a proper engineer's report before it's allowed out to race?? I saw a scrute at a hillclimb (very tame in comparsion) getting no end of grief from just about everyone because he asked when some very ratty old magnesium wheels on an old Fiat had last been crack tested. There may be a time when we all regret not taking this seriously.

I believe the F1 cars are subject to crack testing before they are allowed to enter but I don't know about the Interserie cars.

[john ruston]

Agree Terry,
Organisers must have minimum weights for cars such as E Types,check on cubic capacity on things like 65 911's and twin cams.
It is up to organisers to run races by invitation only and use HTP's as a guide.
Any unreasonably quick car against historical information should be questioned.
Thats the perfect world!
Problem with all this stuff has two main drawbacks,first how do you legislate for superior drivers and organisers need entries to pay the bills.
It's OK for us to pontificate on here but we don't have money invested to run races for the cars.Rule No 1 in any business,'Do not **** off customer'.
So until entrants say they are not going out to play unless the hooky cars are banned ,and many have an idea which they are,nothing will happen and being a miserable old cynic nothing will .
Not many people will stand up and be counted in the Historic Racing hobby crowd and many will grumble but its not the done thing to have a straight talking complaint.
It's so much easier to brush it all under the carpet.
Sorry folks but we are not going to get a perfect world.

[john ruston]

Just read last post.
All cars should be crack tested?
Certainly ours are and so should the others.
If people sit in cars without them being crack tested they must be stupid.

[terence]

Was going to say similar John,I think that anything like Interserie/WSCMasters,all of the cars are prepped to the same standards as Hist F1.
Going back to your earlier post John,with an entry list of over 110 cars for Spa,do they need to worry if it were necessary to chuck out 10 or 15 cars,I dont think so because there would still be another 10 cars waiting as reserves.

[Redneck Rocket]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Bare in mind that 'in period' most cars did not have roll cages,plumbed in extinguishers or,in some case's,even a seat belt.

Interesting point Terry, and one which sprung to my mind. I seem to recall reading a story about Jim Clark and a Ford Galaxie at Brands Hatch and him sliding halfway across the bench seat going through left-handers...

I also recall being informed somewhere along the line, that 'in the good old days'...(whatever that means).... the majority of the fatalities in organized motorsport were caused by fire, and consequent asphyxiation of the driver. By the sounds of it, the marshals being on hand quickly with appropriate equipment, possibly combined with fuel cell technology(speculation) have saved a life this past weekend. In the good old days, that sort of crash might have been lights out.

I won't touch on the overdevelopment issue apart from to say that coming up with an effective system to prevent it is like communism... it sounds great in theory but never works as advertised in practise. For my part, I'm in it for a laugh and if someone wants to bend the rules to get ahead of me I don't really care. It's a hollow victory and it's them who knows in their heart of hearts that it wasn't a fair fight. However, in spite of cars going quicker than they used to, I would say that by and large people are considerably safer than they perhaps used to be 'in period.' Roll cages, fireproofs, helments, extinquishers, kitty litter, organised marshalling, etc. etc.

I think there is certainly some truth to the claim that this improved safety has led to greater risk taking, although I have no frame of reference personally, having only raced during the 'modern era' of safety. It certainly plays out on the road and studies have shown that people will drive faster and take more risks the safer they feel in their vehicle.

For me, I'm not so worried about overdevelopment and so on. If some rich playboy can go home to his missus and tell her all about how he won and that makes him feel better about his small penis, great. What does bother me is people believing (or feeling) they are invincible and driving as such, and putting other people in danger. Ultimately though, it is a dangerous pastime, all of us who participate choose to accept the risks and they are an important part of what makes it enjoyable. If it were easy to go fast, and didn't require any bravery, everyone would be fast! I'm certainly thankful for all of the advances in safety, but if this were the 1960's and I had none of them to rely on, I would still be out there doing it anyway...

[Richy_Rich]

I should imagine that the people in the 60's felt relatively safe when comparing themselves to those who pioneered the sport before them. An E-Type Jag or whatever may look 'classic' now, but at the time it probably looked like it came from freaking outer-space.

[zefarelly]

I guess cheating is only relevant to safety if the cars so much faster than in period its incapable of handiling its modern performance . . . .

elans spring to mind as bloody dangerous and over developed

[andmark4389]

Originally Posted by terence bower

As I've said before,the really bent cars have been built specifically for GW/ Spa six hours,all it takes is for these organiser's to have the ball's to chuck the offending cars out BEFORE they race.OK,sure cheating has been around since day one of motor racing,but with the advent of the Revival being,for whatever reason,the one to win at all costs,cheating has never been so blatantly obvious!
Bare in mind that 'in period' most cars did not have roll cages,plumbed in extinguishers or,in some case's,even a seat belt.Most cars had the standard car seat fitted,appreciably heavier than what we use these days,and yet the cars are considerably lighter than they ever were!
Watching the two Griffs [to name just two of the regulars]at brands yesterday brought home just how ridiculous the bending of regulations has become,totally stupid!!!

Just seen this. I was watching at Brands too. What was it about the Griffiths that highlights rule bending ?