European GP First Corner

speedbump · 8 May 2006, 12:43 (Ref:1603319)

After watching a replay of the first corner.
Massa was clearly ahead of MS.
Then Massa lets off to let MS by.

I think we all know that Ferrari told Massa ,if your in front,
you let MS pass.
Does that not violate the team orders rule ?
Should that not be reviewed and questioned ?
That's what it looked like to me.

Marbot · 8 May 2006, 12:49 (Ref:1603327)

That's what it was like.Massa will say that his tyres suddenly went off or something.And it was very nearly a pass on another car!

**Adam43** · 8 May 2006, 12:57 (Ref:1603334)

They would not do this at the start it is too risky. And far too difficult to engineer. Easier to do when it has settled down slightly, maybe later in the lap or the next lap. Two cars messing around into the first corner can easily lead to big problems.

In addition remember a couple of GP back? Who finished ahead of Michael in the same car.

I think there is some desperation to be outraged here!

strider · 8 May 2006, 12:59 (Ref:1603335)

There is an interesting report of the race here, which deals with this point and also explains in more detail how DC and Liuzzi got together in Turn One.

Marbot · 8 May 2006, 13:00 (Ref:1603336)

I'm ou'raged oi tell yer.

**Adam43** · 8 May 2006, 13:05 (Ref:1603341)

In that grandprix.com article I agree Massa may not have been sokind to someone from another team, but that isn't the same as being told to let Michael go. That is just playing it more safe with your team mate. Perhaps even being a little bit of a weed when Michael is on your inside.

Marbot · 8 May 2006, 13:08 (Ref:1603344)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Perhaps even being a little bit of a weed when Michael is on your inside.

Good job he hasn't got JPM for his team mate then.

speedbump · 8 May 2006, 13:25 (Ref:1603353)

I watched the race on the Speed channel, it's the ITV feed, I think.
It was commented that Massa had a lighter fuel load.
I think Massa was a car length ahead before the corner.
He left the inside way open.
It looked like he went into the corner fine, didn't go to deep.
That's what it looked like to me, I wasn't driving

Inigo Montoya · 8 May 2006, 13:36 (Ref:1603362)

Michael was on the inside, and unlike other teams, Ferrari does not allow their drivers to hit each other. A sensible call by Massa, imho.

BootsOntheSide · 8 May 2006, 17:05 (Ref:1603513)

Massa was in front and should have held the position. Either he's not as good as some of the others at wheel-to-wheel racing, or he was 'advised' by the 'crew' to allow Michael to stay in front of him. The only question is whether crew advice is allowed.

avsfan733 · 8 May 2006, 17:40 (Ref:1603535)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Michael was on the inside, and unlike other teams, Ferrari does not allow their drivers to hit each other.

Well there must be an FIA sanction then.

**Adam43** · 8 May 2006, 17:43 (Ref:1603539)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Massa was in front and should have held the position.

There is no wonder we don't have overtaking.

I continue to fail to see the problem here. They decided to not do a Rosberg/Webber and lose positions by battling. Why would Ferrari make them do this at the first corner and not later in the lap? Why didn't they make Massa move over in Malaysia?

This no team orders rule is stupid because it has given people what they want, but they can't take it.

Dani Filth · 8 May 2006, 18:09 (Ref:1603560)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Massa was in front and should have held the position. Either he's not as good as some of the others at wheel-to-wheel racing, or he was 'advised' by the 'crew' to allow Michael to stay in front of him. The only question is whether crew advice is allowed.

i fail to see the requirement of being "advised" .. the rule is simple . don't get into incidents with your teammate
and passing on the outside is not as easy as it looks ..

speedbump · 8 May 2006, 19:12 (Ref:1603619)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I continue to fail to see the problem here

In my view it was easily Massa's corner.
Yes MS was on the inside and Massa on the outside.
Massa had a better line into the sharp corner
Massa was still in front and should have easily taken the position
I don't think they were near to colliding or seeing a Rosberg/Webber.

It would be nice to have a pint
and see the first corner clip aver a few times

Either Massa got it all wrong or team orders.

Gt_R · 8 May 2006, 19:13 (Ref:1603620)

How long did Massa have "ahead" of MS before they get to the first corner? Must be really long for Brawn to realise, press the button and debate the issue with Massa "well...don't overtake MS or else you'd have to let him pass later".. not exactly the thing you want to distract a driver when he's mixed in a field.

3 races ago, MS were left behind Massa to finish in order at Malaysia. Then Imola, there's "MASSA TOLD TO HOLD ALONSO team orders"... then in Nurburgring "MASSA TOLD TO LET MS PASS team orders". People just find the faintest stuff to whine instead of applauding MS and Ferrari for bringing the fight to Alonso.

Any sensible team would have told their drivers, "yeah..you race...but don't take your teammate out. Unless you have an obvious gap...". Massa did the sensible thing, and ended up with his deserved first podium. Or he can risk taking on MS, hitting each other, and look really stupid in front of the boss and millions of viewers.

Gt_R · 8 May 2006, 19:17 (Ref:1603624)

Yupp.. Massa got it all wrong. Afterall, he din't have the benefit of looking down from a helicopter like you and i did.

chillibowl · 8 May 2006, 19:23 (Ref:1603631)

when i first saw it of course i second guessed Massa'a intentions, wondered who was lighter on fuel, did he let his faster teammate by, etc etc...

but then i read

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Ferrari does not allow their drivers to hit each other.

this is easily one of the most sensible things i have ever read. as such this is not even a real issue for me.

**Adam43** · 8 May 2006, 19:35 (Ref:1603643)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

3 races ago, MS were left behind Massa to finish in order at Malaysia. Then Imola, there's "MASSA TOLD TO HOLD ALONSO team orders"... then in Nurburgring "MASSA TOLD TO LET MS PASS team orders".

So the first one is MASSA TOLD TO STAY AHEAD OF SCHUMACHER

I wish they'd made them swap round in Bahrain. I really do, we would have seen many people's heads explode then!

speedbump, you're buying. At least the first pint.

**Adam43** · 8 May 2006, 20:30 (Ref:1603692)

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedbump

I watched the race on the Speed channel, it's the ITV feed, I think.

Over a pint I've just watched it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedbump

It was commented that Massa had a lighter fuel load.

This could partly explain why Massa got a better start, but in terms of fighting it out in the first corner it is largely irrelevant. And Massa only pitted one lap before Schumacher. There are so many other factors. Not least confidence in whether your tyre are up to temperature and hence how well the brakes and turn in will work. This is why is is incredibly foolish to try to implement any team orders here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedbump

I think Massa was a car length ahead before the corner.

Before they braked Massa was ahead, but not by a full car length.[/quote=speedbump]He left the inside way open.[/quote]He couldn't hav done much else as he was never fully ahead. He could have squeezed Michael to the inside in a Rosberg/Webber way from a couple of races ago. This would have been very foolish as it opened them both up to attack from behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedbump

It looked like he went into the corner fine, didn't go to deep.

He turned in well and took notice that Michael was on the inside. Michael braked fractionally later and on the inside. Massa had no choice. A big round the outside move might have been the order of the day for Montoya, but not for Massa and not against a team mate.

We know Michael is good at changing conditions and getting into the groove quicker. I think it is very likely that with all his experience and talent that Michael was just more confident of the car as he reached the first corner. Couple that to the fact that Massa was never going to be a hero and we can see that it is easy to see how the first corner panned out. Adding 'team orders' into that only makes the situation more complicated and less likely.

Dutton · 9 May 2006, 05:29 (Ref:1603918)

Yeah, there would have been pre-race team orders in play:

Don't take each other out.

The team and both drivers are 100% guilty.

mstar · 9 May 2006, 12:42 (Ref:1604217)

did anyone see button and raikonnens battle that looked great bu the camera cut away seemed they were fighting for a few corners until button nailed him.

Menelaos · 10 May 2006, 08:25 (Ref:1604865)

My opinion is we don't really have to overanalyze all these incidents, cause we simply can't tell what happened. Yeah, Massa probably helped schumacher. Big deal, isn't that what Ferrari always did all these years? You make a choice. I like McLaren cause they don't do that, I also like Renault, Williams etc cause they don't do that. Ferrari plays the game a different way, it's obvious but no one can prove it.

Dutton · 10 May 2006, 19:48 (Ref:1605353)

Except they do operate like that when they think they should.

mac · 11 May 2006, 02:31 (Ref:1605571)

Are we bored? How is this an issue?

Michael had the inside and braked late, Massa didn't want to risk the outside or taking his teammate out - end of story. I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but come on ......

pdman · 11 May 2006, 09:07 (Ref:1605804)

Simple answer to stop all these arguements over team orders and drivers taking advantage of their team mates. (scrub your tyres so I can save mine etc..)

one car, one driver per race...

Then we could introduce compulsary driver changes as well as tyre changes and re-fuelling...

mmm think this should go on the "Something has to Change" thread

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