Oran Park F3 incident (originally 'Welcome to the real world Garth')

[Trevor]

Garth Tander is upset by the lack of flag marshalls at a recent F3 race where his wifes car was damamged.

[davelise]

The incident actually happened during Friday free practice too. Always hard to get people to chuck in the job for a day to wave flags for free. These friday practice days are always short of officials and you need to drive accordingly.

[RotorFan]

Maybe his complaint has been taken out of context. Maybe someone like him complaining is the start to doing something about it. I don't know what, but at least Tander is highlighting it.

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

Maybe his complaint has been taken out of context. Maybe someone like him complaining is the start to doing something about it. I don't know what, but at least Tander is highlighting it.

Rotor, a very good point. Out of context or not let's hope that it does spark some action.

Friday practice or Saturday qualifying doesn't really matter, nobody likes tearing up $100 bills by the box full at any time.

[GT16]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Garth Tander is upset by the lack of flag marshalls at a recent F3 race where his wifes car was damamged.


One thing to say Garth - welcome to the real world.

All meetings (other than your glorified V8's) suffer with a lack of officials, get over it, move on and tell her to drive better.

I think Garth is taking over the mantle of the new Murphy - whinge, whinge, whinge!!!

Thanks for the character assesment there Big Trev.

I do live in the real world mate, if you were at Oran Park at 11.30 Friday night in garage 1, you would have met me, I was the bloke with the other TanderSport guys rebuilding a damaged car.

Yes, it seems that you have taken this out of context. I was asked what I thought of a situation where 5 cars were involved of a totally avoidable accident and I gave the response that I believed to be the case. It wasn't having a go at any flag marshals (couldn't have been, there weren't any there, not their fault) it was a go at the series and its lack of professionalism, this is after all a National Series, billed as a viable alternitave to the V8Supercar program.

To give a little background on the events surrounding why SOME, not just more, flag marshalls are required at Friday practice days for Shannons Nationals weekends.

Shannons Nationals race weekends run under a 2 day permit. This is done to alledgedly save the competitors money. The Friday practice days are run as a private practice day, therefore are the domain of the circuit that the series is visiting on the appropriate weekend.

The circuits say they don't need to provide flaggies for a private practice day, fair enough, they don't provide them for tests days etc. The series said that they were going to 3 day race weekend permits this year, it didn't happen, round 1 of the actual Shannons Series weekend, big shunt. Avoidable shunt, 3 cars out for weekend, 2 written off and likely lost to the series, 2 cars repaired for the weekend at reasonable cost.

I know that crashing is part of motor racing, but when somethng like this happens, it needs to be looked at, and made sure it doesn't happen again.

And, as for the whinging comment. Am I whinging about this, absolutely. Will it help get something done about rectifying the problem, I don't know. But I do know that if they interviewed Jesse Wakeman or Graham Holmes (the owners of the 2 cars written off in this accident) would it have gotten the same media attention? Probably not.

And Trev, I am sure that Leanne drives just fine, after all she did win Race 1 in a still damaged car. I am sure she can probably type faster than you too...

[GT16]

Its actaully Garth, but it seems you only read what you would like.

In 2006, I said that the blue flags weren't being showed, that is a direction from race control in V8SC, therefore my gripe was with race control, I wasn't alone in this, it was cleared up that I wasn't having a go at the flag marshals as they only display what they are told to.

This was, and still is, a gripe with the series and its administration. I do not have the answers as to the logisitics behind having flag marshals at the circuits on a Friday. They should be paid, I, as a team owner would be happy to include a fee that would go towards the flag marshals being paid on a Friday, as part of our Friday fee's. It would be cheaper than the bill I am paying at the moment.

And Trev, I don't want to get into pedantics with you, but another example of the lack of professionalism and organisation here, is that for F3, Fridays are part of the race meeting, for all the other categories, it isn't. As part of F3's sporting regs, the Friday sessions are part of the race meeting, therefore have regulatory purpose, ie if Qualifying is rained out on Saturday, they can use Friday practice results to make a grid, but that is another story for another day....

[alfacors]

Maybe it would help if some of you had actually BEEN at the meeting, and SEEN the damage in person. Graeme Holmes was very lucky to escape without injury. Had he been in an older spec car, he may not have been so lucky. GT has a very valid point, and at no stage did he say the flaggies did a poor job and caused the accident. He is highlighting the fact that at a National meeting, there were no flaggies present for the Friday practice. Yes, is was classified as private practice, but how many private practices have ANY of you been in where the sessions are scheduled for you? There was a clearly set otu schedule for each category on the Friday. I've never been to a "private practice" where this was the case, atbest it was separated into open wheelers and closed cars, and occasionally a separate sportssedans session if needed because of the huge speed differential.

The simple fact is that had there been even ONE flaggie per point on the Friday then we would not have had a 5 car incident in the F3s. That is FACT. It has nothing to do with any of the drivers abilities behind the wheel either.

[Trevor]

And I am pretty sure that I have heard on a number of occasions at drivers breifings where the Clerk of Course says words like: "if you are unhappy about the safety out there, then remove yourself from the track immediately and talk to the officials".

There is some personal responsibility in all this.

EDIT:

I have just read your 2nd post Garth, if it is you, then I apolgise, however if this is the case and Friday is included, then maybe you should be (as a Team Owner) be talking to the Track Owner/Event Promoter, rather than talking to the media.

[GT16]

Trev, apology accepted.

Accepted also that there is some personal responsibility involved, but at the end of the day, the teams pay a fee, they are at a "race meeting" regardless of 2 or 3 day permits and it is a national championship meeting, for the Gold Star no less.

I at no time felt that personal injury was going to be an issue. I would never have Leanne or any TanderSport driver in a situation where I felt it was too dangerous, however, this was totally and completely avoidable, if the appropriate measures were in place.

Fair dinkum, you counldn't see for dust on Friday arvo when the people involved went looking for answers, no one wanted to touch this one with a barge pole. Hence there weren't too many answers there. Therefore when the media asked, I felt it was a chance to bring it to as many people's attention as possible.

From what I have heard, there will be "some" flag marshall at the next round at Mallala. How many, I am not sure, but at least it is a start.

[NewsStalker]

Meetings were, some time ago, trimmed back from 3 to 2 days to, as has been said, 'save costs'.

The problem this brought about, and this particular incident highlights, is that teams and drivers then started to ***** about 'lack of track time' and their 'inability to set up the cars for the track conditions' on a circuit they haven't been to for quite some time.

So - what happened? The circuits started to open the track on the Friday as a Private Practice day. But, because of the numbers of drivers who then turned up, sessions HAD to be allocated for everyone (for some extremely strange reason the larger sports sedans didn't like sharing the track with Formula Vees etc).

And then came the requests for 'flaggies'; then race control, scrutineers, medical and timing. IOW a de facto full blown practice day.

This also meant that track works that needed to be done for these meetings also had to be pushed further into mid-week.

The overall effect was that costs were not curtailed - in many areas, they actually increased. And for the volunteers - there was no change for many of them - they were still required on the Friday so still had to take a day off work.

The suggestion was made that maybe the officials should be re-imbursed. Personally this is something that is long overdue in this sport - As PVDA points out, travel, accommodation and food soon start to add up and there is very little effort made by most circuits to help with this cost. And, if someone or a particular area start to charge for services, when the V8's come to town these groups soon find that V8SCA wants to control the whole pie and they are not wanted.

The whole thing is a catch 22 - and Trev rightly points out that many of the 'big name' drivers need to start putting themselves on the other side of the fence for a change. Maybe then they would think twice about making claims such as this.

[GT16]

Mick,

Luckily there were no serious injuries. Matt Sofi, Mathew Radisich and Leanne all complained of soreness and slight whiplash that I know of, but nothing serious.

I would be happy to provide some sort of tour that would give the attending marshals of the day an experience. We regularly have officials coming by our garage on these weekends to say hi and have a look at the cars and stuff.

Newstalker,

As for where the practice day fees go. One assumes it goes towards making up that particular circuits track hire for the day, ambulance and ...... thats about all I can gather. Perhaps some goes towards the recovery vehicles at the circuit on the day. This is for the Friday's under the current set-up.

The fee for the Friday practice at Oran Park was around the $130 mark per car (Leanne takes care of the funds). I'd be happy to pay upto around the $500 mark per car, if it meant that there was adequate marshals and medical at the circuit. If that also meant that the marshals and medical were apporpriately compensated for the their time and out of pocket expenses, everyone wins. Now I am not sure that everyone would be happy to pay that much, but I am pretty sure that everyone that was at Oran Park on Friday from F3 would be happy to stump up some extra cash.

As for the reducing expenses for the competitors by making it a 2 day event, I'd love for someone to try and make that claim to the 2 competitors that lost their cars in this incident. At $80k and $50K (approx) for the 2 cars, thats a lot of race meetings they will need to attend in the future to get their "savings" back.

This isn't the first crash of reasonable magnitude to happen on a Friday of a race meeting, but it is the first that I can remember in the last few years that included so many cars from 1 category.

[GT16]

Trev,

I will give you some more info regarding this incident. It is difficult to give all the information required at once, as there are many factors at play here.

Graham Holmes spun at the esses, before Suttons. When he spun, he dragged a heap of muddy water accross the circuit in the dip between the esses and Suttons (blind dip, when sitting in an open wheeler). Leanne was the first to arrive. She said she saw Graham (who was beached on the circuit edge, on the outside of the track) and backed off, as she assumed there would be a red flag. When she dropped into the dip, she found the muddy water and lost control of the car, and slid into Grahams car. There was then enough time for me to tell Leanne, via radio, to stay in the car, before 4 more cars, travelling close together slipped on the same muddy water. They slid into either Grahams car, or the outside wall (trying to avoid the stricken cars). As it was, there was enough time for me to switch channels on the radio and yell at Ben Creghton (driving our 2nd car), to slow down and watch for a big crash, he was coming off the bridge and couldn't see any of the cars or slippery surface, as they were in the blind dip.

Yes some of the cars were travelling close together, but this situation took place about 3-4 laps (approx) after a red flag. There WERE 20 cars on the track, you try and find your own nice a quiet piece of real estate to "tune your car for qualifying". Good luck.

[PVDA]

I'd hazard a guess and say it was 3-4 laps after a previous Red Flag meaning the cars are still bunched up a bit on the track not 3-4 laps after the red was being shown to stop them.

The biggest issue is it was a blind part of the track which the drivers couldn't see what was ahead and have to rely on the Flaggies during normal events.

[Richard Craill]

Lets get this back on topic here - I dont believe this ever began by questioning the job flaggies / officials do. It is about a fact: A fact that had there been a flag marshall at a point prior to the (blind) point of the accident, or some other way of warning drivers that there was a car stranded at a blind, 165kph part of the circuit, then there is every chance that the crash may not have happened or would have been reduced in its severity. Holmes' was stuck there, stalled, for between 10 - 20 seconds before Leanne hit him. Fortunately he stayed in the car.

Fortunately for those involved Formula 3 cars are probably the safest racing cars in Australia, Especially the 307-specification cars driven by Leanne Tander, amongst others.

We all know how good a job the officials do and the fact that they do it for free. I also agree that it's not recognised enough amongst those who are at the track for other things, be it media, competitors, whatever. I try to give a shout out and a 'well done' over the PA whenever I get a chance amongst my rabbiting on about racing - but thats not the point of this discussion. I think people have been a bit hard on GT, who made a fair point and whos team now has to fork out more than $10K to fix Leanne's car; not to mention the two competitors - both underfunded 'privateers' - who now have completely trashed cars.

Perhaps this will be better served by showing exactly what happened. GT's post before is on the money but now we have pictures to boot as well.

As you will see in the animation below provided by www.formula3.com.au the crash occured prior to Suttons corner. In a Formula 3 car - where drivers see the tops of the front wheels and thats about it - all the driver sees before entering this part of the corner is spectator mound and signage. The road then drops away before the left hander - and this is where the crash occured. It's a wonderful part of Oran Park and gives the track its rollercoaster nature - especially in F3 cars. Imagine the surprise (Shock?) of cresting the rise and finding a smashed Dallara in your path, 10m down the road from where you are now... and the road is slick with mud and stuff deposited on the track from the initial crash.

I saw the crash happen. I saw Holmes' car stranded and from where I was (near the photographer), it looked like the car had rolled backwards and was off to the outside of the circuit, on the grass. Obviously it wasn't and the initial hit - and the noise - of Leanne cannoning into the car was frightening. In 5 years of working within F3 I have never seen, in person, an impact that hard - same goes for Wakeman's hit later on.

I think in this case the Pics speak for themselves.

Thanks to Pauline Mill for the Pics.

[BFC]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

Maybe his complaint has been taken out of context. Maybe someone like him complaining is the start to doing something about it. I don't know what, but at least Tander is highlighting it.

Yep cut out Friday practice and just make it 2 day race meeting

[NewsStalker]

Garth - first apologies -

Accepted also that there is some personal responsibility involved, but at the end of the day, the teams pay a fee, they are at a "race meeting" regardless of 2 or 3 day permits and it is a national championship meeting, for the Gold Star no less.

I read this as a fee being part of the series. not the Private Practice fee each circuit charges.

Originally Posted by GT16

And Trev, I don't want to get into pedantics with you, but another example of the lack of professionalism and organisation here, is that for F3, Fridays are part of the race meeting, for all the other categories, it isn't. As part of F3's sporting regs, the Friday sessions are part of the race meeting, therefore have regulatory purpose, ie if Qualifying is rained out on Saturday, they can use Friday practice results to make a grid, but that is another story for another day....

This was brought up as an issue a number of years ago when F3 first started doing this (ie incorporating the Friday times into Qualifying if Sat turned to slush). The problem was, and may well still be, that timing is NOT supposed to be provided at Private Practice days (especially in NSW as it completely changes the category of the meeting under NSW State Law). There were (and I belileve still are) at least 2 tracks where the timekeepers refused to attend on Fridays unless it was a 3 day meeting.

It also makes a mockery of the 2 day/3day meeting clasifications by doing this. It wouldn;t (or shouldn;t) take someone with a bit of nouse and money to challenge this regulation (the F3 one that is) based simply on the fact that Friday is NOT set up to properly service and record lap times.

[Sequel]

How about CAM$ take some responsibility? They rubber stamp for a fee the Formula 3 sporting regs which stipulate that the National Championship WILL be run over 3 days, then organise a series with no flags or stewards on a friday?

Then the circuit charges extra (ontop of the series/championship fees, and to cover what I am not sure, as over the circuit PA they were asking if anyone in the padock had a tilt-tray they could borrow, and it took them 30 mins to get one car out of a sandtrap) so that F3 can comply with its CAM$ approved sporting regs?

[Trevor]

This is a CAMS event, and their Gold Star one at, so maybe that is where the problem resolution should begin, with CAMS.

Maybe they could dig into their gold lined coffers and pay for the officials for the Friday practice, they seem to find the money OK to pay the likes of Schenken et el at V8 Supercar level.

[MPA]

GT has a valid point. If Friday is a part of the race meeting then the circuit should be manned. Were the CAMS stewards satisfied with manning levels?

Although the drivers do take a risk every time they compete and sometimes ignore Oil & Yellow flags, they do have the right to expect a minimum level of trackside service during an event.

[mod]marshalling specific sections removed[/mod]

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by MPA

GT has a valid point. If Friday is a part of the race meeting then the circuit should be manned. Were the CAMS stewards satisfied with manning levels?

Exactly my point, I have seen these ******s stop a race meeting from going ahead because 1 flag point out of 12 was not manned, yet they let this sort of thing take place, there is a responsiblity on CAMS, the Clerk of Course and the Stewards.

And again I reiterate, who spoke or raised these concerns with track managment BEFORE the incident? No-one I bet, so they were happy to be out there, weren't they?

[NewsStalker]

Where do you draw a line then about which 'private practice days' require officials?

The problem with this particular day is that F3 have included in their regulations the fact that Friday will be used as a fall back day for qualifying purposes - yet the meeting is only seen by CAMS and the circuit as a 'private day'.

First this ridiculous situation has to be changed - remove the Friday fall back day.

That's the first step.

But - what about other days that aren't part of meetings OR - as happens in NSW - the days before State Championship rounds where the Friday becomes an open slather 'private practice day'.

Before calling for manning levels have a good think about how many days you are really talking about here and the eventual cost this is going to have to be paid by someone.

Unfortunately 'hollering from the rooftops' is not going to achieve anything except possibly stopping these days or, more likely, severely limiting how many cars can take place.

Final question - given the 'ruccus' this incident has caused, are we to assume this has NEVER happened before at a 'private practice day'? I think if people jog their memories, it is not the first time and will not be the last time.

[RS500]

Originally Posted by MPA

275 GTB-4 nailed it. The best thing you can do for us is to holler from the rooftops about the problem!! Yabber to anyone who will listen about the importance of encouraging and training a local Official team wherever you need to race!!

I agree, I don't see why bringing up safety issues with the media should be something to complain about.

Having spent time repairing parts ect before races can say anything that helps lower the risk of damages and injury should be taken on board. And before everyone complains i know that the marshals are volunteers and give their time to work at the track.

I still find it hard to believe CAMS allow people to race their street cars in the observed license tests (actually race not just timed laps), where you get open wheelers with normal cars all out fighting for position on the Friday practice days, but thats a whole other issue.

[Camaroz]

I watched the Oran Park incident as it happen from the rooms above the pit garages so I can post with some knowledge of the situation.

History Lesson: I saw Rod Stevens tear his Mini up at "Rothmans Rise", I saw John Walker do the same thing at Sandown and a few years later Garrie Cooper in the same spot. I was also on the inside of "Shell Corner" when Ian Cook lost control of his Brabham!!!! I can tell you now, these were sickening situations but fortunately, Motorsport Marshalls were there to attend, warn others, make as safe as possible, all that they do, however, nothing has ever been more sickening to me than seeing the unfolding of the "Suttons Carnage"!!! Good luck, good driving, strong cars and the presence of mind for the drivers to stay in their cars (as they realised that, with no warning of the situation to following drivers, there was a real risk and potential for the rest of the field to join in as it was in a blind part of the circuit) we can talk about this in the light that there was only minor injury to persons, major damage to racing cars, discussion about the lack of safety at circuits, the fact remains, there are minimum "manning levels" mandated in NSW Law! Were these met? How can a "National Championship" be operated under a CAMS 2 Day Permit when the Promoter (lose term) publishes a Schedule listing "Official Practice" as per Sporting Regulations in a "Private Practice" day?


[mod]marshalling specific sections removed[/mod]

[Trevor]

UC, I knew you would pop you head in.

I still maintain, and you know that I am right, that nothing would have been said if nothing had happened, so the risk continues.

You are from a risk managment background the same as me and you know damn well that it is all about incident prevention, not incident cleanup.

These people are professionals, should they be putting themselves at risk? They know damn well what they are going into.

To cry fowl after the incident is one thing, but to make a stand and say "we are not going out there until flaggies are in place" is far better, and you know that.

Where was the sanctioning body in all this? Going by camaroz's statement, there was some from the body there.

If they are insisting, by the supp regs, that Friday is part of the meeting as apprarently they are, then it should be manned like a race meeting

This particular sanctioning body would be the first to scream blue bloody murder if it didn't happen like that and that you also know. So where is their all-famous media release on this one?

And I will continue to ask:
* Who spoke to track managment BEFORE the incident?
* Who highlighted the problem to the sanctioning body BEFORE the incident?
* Who mentioned the shortage of officials to the category manager BEFORE the incident?
* Who did the track inspection prior to this "Official" practice day/session started?

Garth is the leading V8 Supecar driver, he is a great driver, but how about talking to those who can make a difference BEFORE going to the media?

Most organisations, and you will agree with this as well UC, would rather have the problem bought to their attention BEFORE going and making it public. And I don't know if Garth did speak to track managment before or after the event, but as a team owner I bet he would rather people keep their issues with his team in-house and not take it to the media.

[Sequel]

I think you will find this was brought to peoples attention (promoters, CAM$, the stewards, etc) when they first decided they would be running 2 day race meetings (after the collapse of Procar) and AF3 flagged the fact they were required by CAM$, under the sporting regs, to run over 3 days.

After previously being told by stewards that they dont start work until Saturday mornings and cant do anything about Friday's proceedings, they were all very interested on a Staurday morning a couple of weeks ago to find out what had happend on a Friday afternoon at Oran Park.