McLaren morale needs a shot in the arm - Page 2

Suze · 17 May 2006, 20:06 (Ref:1612916)

C'est possible Bon....let's just hope that's the way it is from 06 to 07 - I'd much rather have them fighting it out at the top there too...

Big-O · 17 May 2006, 22:03 (Ref:1613029)

Sorry if I'm little of topic, but did JPM stall the car or is it not more allowed to get a little help from the marshalls, like push the car back on the track ???

Dutton · 17 May 2006, 22:06 (Ref:1613032)

He must've stalled it.

If he hadn't, then, as per a regulation change for the 2003 season (which has been maintained), he could've been pushed back into action (seeing as he was in a "dangerous position").

Alternately, he didn't stall it and failed to receive a push (but there was not any complaining about it, so I can only assume this didn't happen).

strider · 17 May 2006, 23:23 (Ref:1613075)

Martin Brundle spotted immediately that the car was beached on the kerb, so pushing it was not an option.

Dutton · 17 May 2006, 23:25 (Ref:1613079)

Cars can be pushed off of kerbs when beached...this has been done before...

strider · 17 May 2006, 23:29 (Ref:1613082)

Maybe, but that was a particularly exposed position. The Race Director would not have wanted the Marshals to be in danger for any longer than absolutely necessary. Indeed, there was some thought that a Safety Car would have been appropriate.

shugruah · 18 May 2006, 01:24 (Ref:1613103)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Like in 97 to 98 - from 4th to 1st... high hopes.

98 was crazy! its a case to be studied! they were not challenging the title in the 4years before, and then they start lapping everyone??? ferraris benetons williams(??)!! great days.....
even so they struggled to win the championship.....

Suze · 18 May 2006, 10:24 (Ref:1613321)

It's possible, but from the marshals point of view...would you have wanted to have been stood there to try and move it off?

More discussion on the safety car is here http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83463

ASCII Man · 18 May 2006, 10:38 (Ref:1613331)

It certainly didn't bother the marshals pushing TGF out the graveltrap at Nurburgring some time ago.

Suze · 18 May 2006, 10:41 (Ref:1613332)

Ah yes, but of course, that involved TGF and was in Germany....

Andrew2001 · 18 May 2006, 10:45 (Ref:1613334)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Its not just Kimi and Juan, but even the management are in doubts.

True, it may be a realistic opinion, but surely it doesnt' look healthy and helpful for the employees who work countless hours to hear their management say "there's nothing we can do".

But indeed, Mclaren has lost their way (again). To refocus and aim for wins is good, as it narrows the focus and give the team a more realistic goal. To lose many key people over the span of half a year is not going to help the team.

But don't discount Mclaren. All it takes is for the team to hit a lucky break, and they'd be back on track.

Pardon me, but i'm quite curious how Ron and Haug can fail to exploit such great resources repeatedly over the past 3 seasons without learning anything from it.

As much as it hurt to read this, you are 110% correct gt_r.....
Still, I underline where I stand. I'd support M.Schu in a McLaren over Kimi in a Ferrari...

Greenback · 19 May 2006, 05:04 (Ref:1613945)

Hi, newbie here.

My view about mclaren "failure" this seasons is due to a combination of things which have been happening in the past few seasons.

a) MTC
It definitely cost a bomb and the company has been over stretched financially over the last few season. However Ron claim that he has already pay off his debt. Did Ron achieve this at the expense of his people's salary and expenses? Is this the reason why so many key engineers left Mclaren?

b) Mclaren and Merc relationship

I personally feel that this is not a good partnership because both Mclaren and Merc are thinking of acquiring each other and go solo.

Merc will have to go solo sooner or later because all other teams like Renault and Ferrari, has proven to be successful and teams like Honda, Toyota and BMW are catching up.

On the other hand, Ron should be thinking that since the cost of running a F1 team is going to be considerably lower in 2008, thanks to the engine freeze rules, it will make sense for him to go solo.

c) Ilmor

Since the death of Paul Morgan in 2001, Merc has been struggling to produce a good engine for Mclaren. They have also snatch a engine designer from BMW but later found out that they didnt get the right guy.

Knowlesy · 19 May 2006, 05:11 (Ref:1613948)

Welcome to the forum Greenback, you'll love it.

a) Hmmm....I'm unsure about this. Sure, it cost a bomb, but I'm not sure Ron would compromise his race team and staff list to build this wonderful facility. And they did pretty well last year in any case, and a lot of credit was placed at the MTC's facilities. I like to think McLaren has just made a plain and simple mistake with the car which may or may not be overcome this season.

b) It's an interesting point. But again, not sure how this would affect on-track performance. Again, I point to last year.

c) Totally agree.

Dutton · 19 May 2006, 05:27 (Ref:1613957)

Welcome to the site.

Good first post.

The MTC is quite an exquisite facility, and thus I don't doubt it is an improvement in operation terms for the team. However, the financial effects of it are the source of much speculation. It certainly wouldn't be surprising if it has produced a medium-term strain, but this is constantly denied. It is impossible for us to have a clue either way. Like with everything else, all we can do is speculate: this is true for everything we do on these forums, but is particularly so in this case. We are ultra-clueless, due to the highly secretive nature of the financial affairs of the teams.

Mercedes could certainly acquire the remaining 60% shares of Mclaren, thus take it over, but Mclaren could never buy Mercedes. If you mean buying out Mercedes' 40% share in Mclaren, well, yes, that is certainly possible. I would, however, say that Mercedes will, inevitably, eventually, buy the rest of Mclaren. I would agree there is something that doesn't really work properly with their relationship, and I am not sure what it is, but I don't think it is anything to do with what you suggest. In the end, Mercedes want to buy Mclaren; however, I don't see this as a conflict, but rather what Ron and Olijeh both want (in the end).

Also, Ilmor was taken over by Mercedes. So, really, it doesn't exist anymore. Apart from that, Mercedes had more or less taken over the engine project from Ilmor prior to the official take-over. Well, it was not a take-over as such I guess...internal synergy is perhaps more accurate?

So, in the end, when it all shakes out, I agree there is something not quite right about the Mclaren-Mercedes relationship, but I am not sure I agree with your thinking.

Having said that, I have not really proposed anything else: therefore, I would say the difference is I cannot say I think I know...as there is no way I can.

Greenback · 19 May 2006, 08:36 (Ref:1614043)

Ok lets do some number crunching.

The cost of the MTC is rumour to be around 300m sterlin or US$600+m. According to some article from the internet, Mclaren Group's profit for 2002 and 2003 are US$27m and -US$12.6m respectively.

At the end of 2004, it was reported the Mclaren is carrying an overdraft of US$127m, or US$14m lesser than 2003. However Ron claim that Mclaren's debt is no more than US$40m as of now. If you read last's month F1 Racing interview with Ron at MTC, Ron orchestrate a phone conversation with his secretary in front of Matt and was told that the debt is even less than US$40m (Wonder why he has to do that?)

In order for Ron to run down his over draft from $127m to $40m within a year, the money definitely has to come from somewhere. Yes, they got Vodafone (which only start next year) and JW, Emirates sponsorship, but that probably will only make up for the lost of losing tobacco sponsor WEST isnt it?

Btw, there is an article from French magazine Autohebdo saying that Mclaren is carrying a debt of US$675millions. http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns16783.html are they in some sort of financial trouble?

has anyone read the recent issue of F1 Racing? There is an interview article with AN, and he should be shedding some lights to what is happening in mclaren.

Greenback · 22 May 2006, 14:23 (Ref:1616333)

I wont be surprise if it is true. According to Newey's interview with R1 Racing, he did mentioned about a pay cut while he had his extended holiday in 2005.

McLaren denies debt crisis
22/05/2006 13:50

Woking-based McLaren has reacted angrily to suggestions that the part Mercedes-owned team is burdened with huge debts.
It was reported recently that, mainly due to the construction of the team's impressive factory in England, McLaren now owes a staggering amount of money; in the region of nearly three-quarters of a billion dollars.
The rumour continued that Mercedes-Benz, the 40% team shareholder, might - as a result - simply take over the remainder of McLaren from principal Ron Dennis and Mansour Ojjeh. "People who make such claims should be more careful," Mercedes' competition director Norbert Haug told Motorsport Aktuell newspaper.

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/N...937137,00.html

Andrew2001 · 23 May 2006, 20:45 (Ref:1617383)

I just want to see a McLaren 1-2 at Monaco, with a couple of DNFs from Schu and Alonso....

Dutton · 23 May 2006, 20:56 (Ref:1617392)

I'll meet you part way.

DNF for Alonso, Michael wins, with Mclaren 2-3, followed by Massa 4th.

Knowlesy · 23 May 2006, 20:58 (Ref:1617396)

Montoya for the win! 2003 floods back!

Dutton · 23 May 2006, 21:16 (Ref:1617417)

The problem is going to be overcoming those STRs...

Knowlesy · 23 May 2006, 21:19 (Ref:1617419)

Well as I said, they will win by three laps, but the margin will be such that they will face exclusion.

The path is open now...

**Bononi** · 23 May 2006, 21:27 (Ref:1617425)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutton

I'll meet you part way.

DNF for Alonso, Michael wins, with Mclaren 2-3, followed by Massa 4th.

Nice bet, I would mix Massa between the Maccas...

Dutton · 23 May 2006, 21:47 (Ref:1617441)

Well, if I had my way, then Massa would finish ahead of the Mclarens.

That wasn't a prediction, by the way...the post you quoted, nor this one. However...were it to happen, well, I would not complain!

(Knowlesy, that is a fan-bloody-tastic avatar btw!)

Knowlesy · 23 May 2006, 21:49 (Ref:1617446)

Why thank you!

**Bononi** · 23 May 2006, 22:29 (Ref:1617474)

Did you use your webcam to take your own pic... ????

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