[LM24] Audi plans for 2010 revealed

[AndrewF31]

I like their Silverstone and Zhuhai lineups. Capello seems like the most sensible one of the 3 golden boys, and as others have said, the best to drive with newcomers.
And Bernhard in one race, and Dumas in another, will make for 2 very good cars to fight with Peugeot.
Not saying PLM is not good of course. Whenever you have those 3 together, something good is bound to happen. And the 3 new boys did well at Le Mans.
Just disappointed Audi didn't drive one Audi over the summer... LMS was quite boring.

Where did you hear about Rocky being in the Hybrid? He last drove a 911 quite some years ago I think (at Le Mans at least).

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

Where did you hear about Rocky being in the Hybrid? He last drove a 911 quite some years ago I think (at Le Mans at least).

Official news story broke out earlier today.

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ocus-5122.html

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

Just disappointed Audi didn't drive one Audi over the summer... LMS was quite boring.

Don't agree.

Where did you hear about Rocky being in the Hybrid? He last drove a 911 quite some years ago I think (at Le Mans at least).

Back in 2006, in 2007 Rockenfeller became Audi works driver...

[chernaudi]

The owner of the Audi fansite Fouritude says that because Dindo is nearest of the "Dream Team" to retirement but still has the speed and performance in him, they've decided to let him shapen Timo and Romain to get them more in tune with a diesel LMP1 car, as well as the fact that Allan and Tom have a few more years left in them realtive to Dindo.

Audi also says thay they want to use all three LM lineups at LM next year. So what's wrong with using a fast vet like Dindo to try and make the lineup more equal with his tutalige?

[gwyllion]

I am not sure that Timo and Romain need a lot of training. They won Le Mans, so they know how to drive the R15+ by now If they needed a teacher, TK would do just fine.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am not sure that Timo and Romain need a lot of training. They won Le Mans, so they know how to drive the R15+ by now If they needed a teacher, TK would do just fine.

Well, just because you won Le Mans, doesn't mean you know it, just ask Tom K .

But yes, the best current active Le Mans teacher is Tom K, but i don't see him in a car with the new comers as Audi want a "Fast car" and "Good Back-up", Kinda like the old "Tom K - Dindo - McNish" and "Frank Biela - Marco Werner - Emanuele Pirro"

[chernaudi]

I don't think that Audi is looking for a good back up, because that strategy didn't really work in '08 or '09. All three teams were on pace this year, and that's probably what surprised and squeesed Peugeot. However, the #9 Audi was still minutely slower than the #7 and #8, and how many times did Timo nearly beach the car at Mulsanne, and Dumas' problems with a bad set of tires late in the race. It still seems that they have some adaption issues with the R15, as it's faster, heavier and more poweriful than the RS Spyder and for sure faster than the Riley DP they drove for Penske last year.

Dindo is Audi's most experienced driver aside from Allan and Tom, and those three got the most out of the early R15. But also as 4T's owner said, Dindo is the closest to retirement and Allan and Tom can be a team for a few more years when Dindo does scale back in racing.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

However, the #9 Audi was still minutely slower than the #7 and #8, and how many times did Timo nearly beach the car at Mulsanne, and Dumas' problems with a bad set of tires late in the race.

Wasn't the late tire problem actually a slow puncture that was picked up well in advance of potentially going explosive?

[chernaudi]

No, Marshall Pruett from Speed said that the car was like that for two in a half stints, and it was a tire compound choice. However, it seems that he's wrong about the R15's handling (him saying that it understeers as opposed to oversteer which the TV cameras showed.), so who knows, though a puncture is unlikely given that 2 1/2 stints equals about two hours. If it was a cut, it would've blown out long before that.

And has Audi, or Peugeot for that matter, done any real testing for the ILMC. Audi probably did at least CFD/wind tunnel simulations for their HD package, and maybe some on track testing to dial in the cars areo and chassis setups, but I doubt that Peugeot has done much, since there's little to develop on the 908.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't think that Audi is looking for a good back up, because that strategy didn't really work in '08 or '09. All three teams were on pace this year, and that's probably what surprised and squeesed Peugeot. However, the #9 Audi was still minutely slower than the #7 and #8, and how many times did Timo nearly beach the car at Mulsanne, and Dumas' problems with a bad set of tires late in the race. It still seems that they have some adaption issues with the R15, as it's faster, heavier and more poweriful than the RS Spyder and for sure faster than the Riley DP they drove for Penske last year.

Dindo is Audi's most experienced driver aside from Allan and Tom, and those three got the most out of the early R15. But also as 4T's owner said, Dindo is the closest to retirement and Allan and Tom can be a team for a few more years when Dindo does scale back in racing.

A matter of fact is that the "good back up" has won more often that the fast one (The Red R8 betting the yellow, and Tom, Allan and Dindo "losing" to the slower pace car of Biela, Werner and Capello in '06 and '07). So there is sense in having a "good back up".
But i agree in the case of Dindo retiring before Tom and Allan. This is the most probably reason. But I'm certain that the pace of the two cars has been in Dr. Ullrichs mind when making the decision (ei. that he wanted to keep his successful setup)

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And has Audi, or Peugeot for that matter, done any real testing for the ILMC. Audi probably did at least CFD/wind tunnel simulations for their HD package, and maybe some on track testing to dial in the cars areo and chassis setups, but I doubt that Peugeot has done much, since there's little to develop on the 908.

Audi probably has, as a way to learn more about the R15, so they can better design the R18 (The R16 being the R8 GT3, and R17 the 2011 DTM car). But Peugeot probably hasn't as, as you say, don't have anything they can improve. But also because i fear that Peugeot just run these races to have a shot at the victory, but not being a main focus point. Peugeot is far more interested in beating Audi next year when everything will be reset and they will both be with new cars.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

A matter of fact is that the "good back up" has won more often that the fast one (The Red R8 betting the yellow, and Tom, Allan and Dindo "losing" to the slower pace car of Biela, Werner and Capello in '06 and '07). So there is sense in having a "good back up".

Peugeot won in '09 with the "good back up" as well. So it is very valuable strategy.

[chernaudi]

A good back up doesn't matter if they can't at least run roughly the pace of the lead car. In '06 and '07, Frankie, Emanuelle and Marco ran at roughly the same pace as Allan, Dindo, and Tom when they had problems. In '08 and '09, Audi didn't have that, hence the driver shuffle this year.

Some may argue that Peugeot is bringing their big guns to China, while Audi seems to be doing the same for PLM with the "dream team" and their fastest driving team from LM in Andre, Benoit and Marcel and also by bringing Allan, Tom and Dindo to all 3 races.

And what changes likely has Audi made from their LM spec to the "sprint" spec--any major changes or did they just do as Peugeot (and as Audi themselves has done with the R10 and R8) and just tack on dive planes and gurneys and crank more wing into the car (Audi may've changed the rear wing's camber to being flat all the way across instead of the upward curved outside sections, but Oreca and HPD have run similar wings in HD trim as well)?

And could the 2010 R15 have been an R18 design exercise all along (aside from the R18 likely being a GTP coupe)?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

A good back up doesn't matter if they can't at least run roughly the pace of the lead car. In '06 and '07, Frankie, Emanuelle and Marco ran at roughly the same pace as Allan, Dindo, and Tom when they had problems. In '08 and '09, Audi didn't have that, hence the driver shuffle this year.

Some may argue that Peugeot is bringing their big guns to China, while Audi seems to be doing the same for PLM with the "dream team" and their fastest driving team from LM in Andre, Benoit and Marcel and also by bringing Allan, Tom and Dindo to all 3 races.

And what changes likely has Audi made from their LM spec to the "sprint" spec--any major changes or did they just do as Peugeot (and as Audi themselves has done with the R10 and R8) and just tack on dive planes and gurneys and crank more wing into the car (Audi may've changed the rear wing's camber to being flat all the way across instead of the upward curved outside sections, but Oreca and HPD have run similar wings in HD trim as well)?

And could the 2010 R15 have been an R18 design exercise all along (aside from the R18 likely being a GTP coupe)?

The driver shuffle this year was because of the "Audi retirement" from Biela, Pirro and Werner. But yes, of cause the "good back-up" has to run roughly around the same times as the fast car, otherwise they wouldn't be sitting in an Audi. When we speak of a "fast car" and a "good back-up", the difference in normal race pace is probably around 0 - 2sec around La Sarthe. But the fast car can do a faster pace for a period of time, where the gap may be 2-7sec a lap. This gives Audi 2 good strategies to play at Le Mans, as one is faster and the other is the most likely to stay out of trouble.

The Audi R15 is something Audi has learn a lot from, but i don't think they developed it with the R18 in mind.
But i do think we will se some "R15" in the R18, perhaps with a "new kind" of Coupe. (sorta like the R15 was a new kind of Spyder)

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And could the 2010 R15 have been an R18 design exercise all along (aside from the R18 likely being a GTP coupe)?

No, the for-2011 R18 is a different beast; "different" rules, engine, etc. There wouldn't be much to learn much from the (comparatively) high power, (comparatively) high downforce redeveloped 2010 R15.

[chernaudi]

So Audi is more likely to learn from the R8 and the Bentley Speed 8 line of cars than the R15, whose chassis and areo is closer to what the 2011 regs are? The orginal R15 taught Audi what not to do for a 2011 car, let alone any if you want to win Le Mans (Channel bodywork). The HD Acura ARX-02 would've been more competitive if it wasn't under-engined, and the 2010 R15 incorporated ARX-02 and Porsche RS Spyder ideas, and the ARX-02 was an engorged LMP2 car and the RS Spyder is an LMP2 car, and the ACO is aiming to have the LMP1s slowed to current LMP2 levels.

So Audi would be better off to design an 2004-2010 LMP2 car with LM bodywork than take what they've learned from the revised R15? I think that Audi has plenty that can transfer in basic concept, since the 2010 R15 was modifed to address the fact that the 2009 car was basically an engorged LMP2 car with a big diesel engine in it that didn't work at Le Mans. Even Porsche and Acura/HPD had to make speical LM bodywork for their cars. And we all know that the Peugeot 909 will likely resemble a scaled down 908.

I understand that Audi will build a new car to take advantage of the lighter engine and such, but Audi has proven that if you have a good car for LM, by tacking on gurnies and dive planes you'll have a good car for the ALMS/LMS--the R8 and R10 proved that point.

And with the R15 still retaining some features suited for the ALMS/LMS, I believe that the layout of Silverstone and Road Atlanta will be an eqalizer for Audi if they still are lacking top speed against the Pugs like at Le Mans (though they've been as fast, if not faster, elsewhere, even dating back to the PLM race last year). My only concern is Shanghi, which is a Tilke-drome F1 circuit with long straights that feed into slow corners that might suit the Pugs if the Audis are still down on power/straight line speed.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

My only concern is Shanghi, which is a Tilke-drome F1 circuit with long straights that feed into slow corners that might suit the Pugs if the Audis are still down on power/straight line speed.

Chinese round of the ILMC is at Zhuhai, which is very different from Shanghai and at least 5-6 years older (in terms of build date). And possibly tighter as well, I remember it from GTR2 as having quite a lot of slow corners.

[chernaudi]

True, but it still seems to have a lot of long straights that some of which feed into slow corners. The Audi seems to be more suited for faster tracks, like your typical ALMS circuit, or maybe like Spa or even Monza. However, Zhuhai does have a few medium/high speed corners on it.

[Aysedasi]

I wonder how long this 'Audi plans for 2010 revealed' thread will go on - 2012? 2013?

Perhaps someone needs to strike off for 2011 sometime in a new thread......

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I wonder how long this 'Audi plans for 2010 revealed' thread will go on - 2012? 2013?

Perhaps someone needs to strike off for 2011 sometime in a new thread......

... simply just call it "Audi plans" and we will have a go for the next 50 pages...

[chernaudi]

This is still 2010 and the ILMC hasn't even begun yet, and that will likely be the toughest fight between Audi and Peugeot, since it seems that no development work has been carried out on the 908, and Audi has a modified areo package for the ILMC events.

Speaking of which, depending on what Audi did and based on the LM-spec R15 and the sprint-spec 908 at Spa, how much performance can Audi gain by running a high downforce package at the ILMC events?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

So Audi is more likely to learn from the R8 and the Bentley Speed 8 line of cars than the R15, whose chassis and areo is closer to what the 2011 regs are? The orginal R15 taught Audi what not to do for a 2011 car, let alone any if you want to win Le Mans (Channel bodywork). The HD Acura ARX-02 would've been more competitive if it wasn't under-engined, and the 2010 R15 incorporated ARX-02 and Porsche RS Spyder ideas, and the ARX-02 was an engorged LMP2 car and the RS Spyder is an LMP2 car, and the ACO is aiming to have the LMP1s slowed to current LMP2 levels.

So Audi would be better off to design an 2004-2010 LMP2 car with LM bodywork than take what they've learned from the revised R15? I think that Audi has plenty that can transfer in basic concept, since the 2010 R15 was modifed to address the fact that the 2009 car was basically an engorged LMP2 car with a big diesel engine in it that didn't work at Le Mans. Even Porsche and Acura/HPD had to make speical LM bodywork for their cars. And we all know that the Peugeot 909 will likely resemble a scaled down 908.

I understand that Audi will build a new car to take advantage of the lighter engine and such, but Audi has proven that if you have a good car for LM, by tacking on gurnies and dive planes you'll have a good car for the ALMS/LMS--the R8 and R10 proved that point.

And with the R15 still retaining some features suited for the ALMS/LMS, I believe that the layout of Silverstone and Road Atlanta will be an eqalizer for Audi if they still are lacking top speed against the Pugs like at Le Mans (though they've been as fast, if not faster, elsewhere, even dating back to the PLM race last year). My only concern is Shanghi, which is a Tilke-drome F1 circuit with long straights that feed into slow corners that might suit the Pugs if the Audis are still down on power/straight line speed.

Not sure I follow how 8 year old cars designed to different regulations (flatbottom) have anything at all to do with future (2011) rules based on the current rules (2004 basis). There never would have been any basis for a 2011 car in a R15, debut or revised, LM or sprint; too much drag. Remember, you're looking at a 100+ hp hit for a 2011 car. That means downforce you were carrying around as drag has got to go. Therefore the channel concept is a non-starter and even the revised car has been designed to a different drag regime than any 2011 car would be.

[chernaudi]

That's why it's rumored that the R18 will be a GTP coupe like the 908, along with the fact that with the ACO tire change procedures that the advantages of driver changes with an open car are largely negated--only time that the R15 now being an open car would be an advantage is at PLM if IMSA uses their pit rules.

Aero wise, it seems that the R15 was inspired to a degree by the Audi R8's concepts, but more along the lines of the Porsche RS Spyder, Acura ARX-02 and the Bentley Speed 8

Does that mean that the Bentley Speed 8 influenced front ends will likely disappear due to drag considerations, or will the diesel and hybrid cars use their the fact that they'll still likely make more power than normal gasoline cars to still use first generation LMP features--after all, the Acura ARX-01 and the Porsche RS Spyder are making about the same power that it's proposed that LMP1s should be makeing outside of the ALMS next year, and they ran modified bodywork for Le Mans, but with some very high downforce bodywork for the ALMS.

But then again, Highcroft has justifed the use of their LM bodywork in the ALMS for more straightline speed to negotiate traffic. Hopefully, the events of Mosport will lead to the ACO slowing GT cars in propotion to the LMP cars.

Is this what we'll likely see for the R18 and the 909?

As for the R15 for the rest of 2010, is there much to gain by running HD bodywork for the ILMC based on what was seen at Spa relative to the 908? After all, the R15's lost most of their time in sector two, and it seems that things would've been more equal if they ran a higher downforce package.

[Tim the Grey]

All the talk around Audi and Spa was that Spa was a 'dress rehearsal' for LM itself. Certainly, they didn't seem overly 'exercised' by their drubbing. I suspect they would have been more worried by the 908 pace at LM!

Back on topic, I would be surprised if next year's cars don't have more than a hint of fresh thought, around them? Peugeot have odd things to look at, Audi certainly do. So, time to sort them with an enforced redesign?

P.S. I wonder how much Bentley will work it's way into the R18? Seeing as they have all that data anyway.

[chernaudi]

For a dress rehearasl, Audi certianly took Spa seriously once they saw that they had a chance to win. If Audi had the higher downforce bodywork they have now at Spa, they probably would've won based on the fact that their tires would've had more grip and wouldn't have had to change back and forth between slicks and intermediates when the track got greasy.

Also, it seems that the R15 favors faster, twistier tracks (remember, the R15 was designed with more of a bias towards the ALMS than the early incarnations of the R8 and the R10 were) where cornering momentum and downforce are as if not more important than straightline speed-always an Audi weakness at LM, even in the R8, and only because is had so much torque, braking and cornering speed did it run much faster times at LM.

Based on Spa, a high downforce R15 should be at least competitive with the similarly set up 908s. Also, the R15 has VTG turbochargers on it, something that it's likely that Peugeot doesn't have, which will give the Audis better throttle response and more consistant power in the RPM range.

[Mike_Wooshy]

Are you paid to spout this ? or is it for the love of the brand ? I cant find the press realise but the Pugs were using VTG this year .... even at Le mans which if I remember correctly Audi taken off for the 24 hour race ....... Fact is Audi won Le mans, against Pugs 4 year old car with a brand new design and fair play to them they have the experience the Pugs threw it away with a all or nothing stratagy once cracks started to appear. Both cars are brilliant cars they just use 2 diffrent means to achive the same goal..... isnt that what sportscars is all about??