Running wide

[Peter Horsman]

Autosport reports that the MSA has agreed that the track limits should be strictly enforced at race meetings, and have instructed all CoCs to adopt a consistent approach.

Second transgression - a waved flag. Third - five second panalty. Fourth - drive through. Fifth - exclusion.

Having lit the blue touch paper, I shall now retire for the time being............

[midgetman]

Good news! It's percolating down from the Bangers n Crash Touring Cars, and needs clamping down on.

[Clive Brown]

But as ever, the Devil will be in the detail.... What constitutes a breach of the track limits- two wheels off.... four wheels off? What if a driver is forced off, as Plato did to Collard out of the chicane at Donington? What if a driver makes a genuine mistake, and breaches track limits through incompetence, rather than through seeking to gain an unfair advantage?

Personally, I'm sick and tired of seeing drivers cut out those parts of circuits upon which they did not wish to run, and this started with watching Gerry Marshall driving over and through, rather than around, the chicane at Thruxton in the 70s.

I can't believe just how this latter corner has now been emasculated to enable bad driving and/or outright cheating to escape unpunished; rebuild it with vertical RSJs supporting concrete walls.

The late Tony Lanfranchi said that the way to stop accidents at Paddock Bend at Brands was to insert bloody great horizontal steel spikes in the bank facing outwards towards the circuit. I'm not sure he was wrong.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

But as ever, the Devil will be in the detail.... What constitutes a breach of the track limits- two wheels off.... four wheels off? What if a driver is forced off, as Plato did to Collard out of the chicane at Donington? What if a driver makes a genuine mistake, and breaches track limits through incompetence, rather than through seeking to gain an unfair advantage?

It's very clearly defined - four wheels off, over the white line. As for "genuine mistakes", no penalties are imposed until the third offence - three genuine mistakes suggests that maybe a driver may be a danger to himself or to other drivers.

I'm not sure why Autosport has apparently only just noticed this - it's been in force from the start of the season!

[Greem]

We (flaggies and post chiefs) been asked to report factually all instances of "four wheels off" *but* to include all relevant information. This removes the "should we report that one?" question and makes it clearer for everyone.

This means "four wheels off to driver's right, forced wide avoiding a spinning car" is reported but the extra detail means that is unlikely to result in action. Repeated running wide with no obvious cause other than taking a faster or shorter line however will do (and has).

At the Donington Historic meeting the crew on my post started playing "four wheels off bingo". Sadly they didn't get 66 or 88 to complete the card!

[delta]

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen.You dont have runoff with street circuits so drivers keep well within their limits

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by delta

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen.You dont have runoff with street circuits so drivers keep well within their limits

Well said, Sir!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Horsman

Autosport reports that the MSA has agreed that the track limits should be strictly enforced at race meetings, and have instructed all CoCs to adopt a consistent approach.

Looks like Graham Hill bend last w/end in the pic? In which case we know who is illustrating the point! I guess you were already past the camera, Peter...... I managed to do the same on Sunday but had the excuse of oil from a blown Camaro just in front.....

Do you think JP instructed the new infield at Snetterton to have no run off for that reason? 4 wheels off there and you are very disadvantaged at least. Works for me.

[Chigley]

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen

+1

PS Maybe some police stinger spikes just beyond the kerbing.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

. . .
Personally, I'm sick and tired of seeing drivers cut out those parts of circuits upon which they did not wish to run, and this started with watching Gerry Marshall driving over and through, rather than around, the chicane at Thruxton in the 70s.
. . .

Really?

I seem to recall that the Thruxton chicane during most of the 70's was an Armco construction with lorry tyres (concrete filled ?) protecting the facing end.

Or have I got the years wrong?

But I wholly agree with the sentiment of your post.

Regards

Jim

[Alex E]

Was it Tony Lanfranchi that said if they put pointed wooden spikes around the outside of Paddock Hill then less people would crash there.
I think this was prior the the changing of the profile of Paddock.

[Clive Brown]

I did not make myself sufficiently clear; my bad.

The Thruxton chicane of the 70s was indeed as you describe. What a shame it isn't now- that would sort the banger drivers in the BTCC out.

Gerry Marshall used to drive over the kerbs (which made for great photos, as it put the inside wheels of the car off the ground), and over the flat concrete areas between the kerb and the Armco. It's corner cutting, and it's cheating; was then, is now.

[terence]

Originally Posted by delta

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen.You dont have runoff with street circuits so drivers keep well within their limits

That makes me think of the "Ring",four off? you walk [hopefully] home!. As has been said,this has been in force from the start of this season,not before time!!!

[zefarelly]

Well said Iain and Clive. totally agree.

I ran right off the road at Snett last time out, total accident and lost me the lead, didn't do it again, drove within the limits and got quicker.

you see it at Spa at the Top of Eu Rouge as well . . .at least until someone totals the car and everyone calms down a bit

[GORDON STREETER]

I started on the ovals, now you realy dont want to run out of road !

[jamesjtucker]

The problem with penalty changing depending on how many times you drive of the track, I can't see how they can police it, would take even more marshals and observers and someone in the office totting up every offense per driver.

Easiest way is to put armco on the edge of the track like on the short ovals and Monaco.

[The SpeCTator]

Originally Posted by jamesjtucker

The problem with penalty changing depending on how many times you drive of the track, I can't see how they can police it, would take even more marshals and observers and someone in the office totting up every offense per driver.

Easiest way is to put armco on the edge of the track like on the short ovals and Monaco.

Not popular with the motor bikes

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by The SpeCTator

Not popular with the motor bikes

Thought Cadwell was a motor bike track first and foremost? Not too many run offs there...

IIRC I read that when Goodwood first became a race circuit, the motor cyclists demanded hazards at the side of the track because it was "too easy" with grass run offs!

[Al Weyman]

Forget the Armco we dont want to go back to that surely, just police if correctly. I watched a CTCRC race at Silverstone the over week from the grandstand above the BRDC and once the marker had been destroyed on the first lap one driver in particular went 4 wheels off virtually every lap throwing dust and debris up and was not penalised and there was a marshals post right opposite so no excuse. Personally I think two wheels off should be a penalty end of story, stay on the tarmac or pay the penalty!

[delta]

Been waiting for a chance to post this pic. One of my favorates.
Courtesy Jim Haulgrave.

[terence]

Really think of this as a feather in the MSAs cap. It should now [hopefully] encourage people to drive correctly,get proper lap times by NOT cheating,which cutting a corner,is in effect.

[Peter Mallett]

Frankly I don't really care, as long as whatever the rule is it is applied. A bit pointless most of us complying, only for the few who trangress to benefit.

Also using the kerb at Surtees on the Indy circuit really sets the car sliding under power just before turning right and that is great fun.

[zefarelly]

It'd be nice to see it enforced at Lydden, the amount of flint that gets thrown up does nothing but trash bodywork and windscreens!

circuit owners making the green bit grippier than the black bit doesn't exactly help either

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Frankly I don't really care, as long as whatever the rule is it is applied. A bit pointless most of us complying, only for the few who trangress to benefit.

Also using the kerb at Surtees on the Indy circuit really sets the car sliding under power just before turning right and that is great fun.

Exactly. Consistent application of the rule, whatever, is all that should be needed. Remember first race meet on new 200 circuit at Snetterton this year, when the odd individual's 'straight lining' of Montreal every lap caused several other cars to suffer expensive radiator and body damage. I would have strung the culprit(s) up by the short and curlies....

[terence]

Just a thought,the circuit edge,ie,the White line,is inside of all kerbing.