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Old 27 Feb 2024, 12:00 (Ref:4198477)   #601
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One thing i dont understand is that regardless of whether Horner did or didnt do what he is being accused of why wasnt he suspended until the investigation was complete?

He was at the testing, being interviewed in press conferences etc. In any other organisation or industry you are suspended (on full pay) until the investigation has been concluded.

Also, why is nobody pointing this out? Why are the media not asking this? It surprises me that it wasnt more of a story tbh
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Old 27 Feb 2024, 13:04 (Ref:4198485)   #602
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One thing i dont understand is that regardless of whether Horner did or didnt do what he is being accused of why wasnt he suspended until the investigation was complete?

He was at the testing, being interviewed in press conferences etc. In any other organisation or industry you are suspended (on full pay) until the investigation has been concluded.

Also, why is nobody pointing this out? Why are the media not asking this? It surprises me that it wasnt more of a story tbh
Because suspending the team principle at the start of the season would seriously hamper operations. Whilst I agree with you (because you're right), it would cause too much impact. What if Red Bull lost this season after a terrible start due to this, and he was found innocent?

I'm normally all for paid suspension, but in this case I understand why not. I imagine his communications are being heavily monitored due to the lack if suspension.
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Old 27 Feb 2024, 13:09 (Ref:4198487)   #603
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One thing i dont understand is that regardless of whether Horner did or didnt do what he is being accused of why wasnt he suspended until the investigation was complete?

He was at the testing, being interviewed in press conferences etc. In any other organisation or industry you are suspended (on full pay) until the investigation has been concluded.

Also, why is nobody pointing this out? Why are the media not asking this? It surprises me that it wasnt more of a story tbh
I don't think the actual details of what happened have been publicly announced - at least officially, apart from the vague and broadly worded initial statement. I have read lots of rumours and guesswork, none of which is verified. So, if we don't know what allegedly happened, how can we know whether temporary suspension is warranted or not?
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 11:11 (Ref:4198627)   #604
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 12:08 (Ref:4198634)   #605
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Innocent until proven guilty… except in the court of public opinion
Thats been my thoughts all along.

However where there's smoke and bribes there's fire.
Unless those didnt happen.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 15:44 (Ref:4198665)   #606
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BBC reporting CH has been cleared........about as surprising as the grey skies in London today.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 15:46 (Ref:4198666)   #607
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BBC reporting CH has been cleared........about as surprising as the grey skies in London today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68411597
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 16:15 (Ref:4198669)   #608
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while i feel like the press release doesn't really strike me as being particularly illuminating nor is it a victory for transparency, im prepared to move on.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 16:20 (Ref:4198670)   #609
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while i feel like the press release doesn't really strike me as being particularly illuminating nor is it a victory for transparency, im prepared to move on.
I am sure that will be a weight off Horners mind....
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 16:26 (Ref:4198672)   #610
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I am sure that will be a weight off Horners mind....
fair fair!
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 16:26 (Ref:4198673)   #611
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while i feel like the press release doesn't really strike me as being particularly illuminating nor is it a victory for transparency, im prepared to move on.
Pretty much my viewpoint. It feels like "Red Bull has declared Red Bull innocent". No doubt more to the story, but time will tell if more details emerge. I expect lots of gnashing of teeth and calls for retribution against the press, etc. It will just have to slowly burn down a bit. Probably will not be talked about a great deal after second race, unless more details show up.

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I am sure that will be a weight off Horners mind....
And now it is a chain around his neck. Right or wrong his detractors will always point to this.

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Old 28 Feb 2024, 16:48 (Ref:4198675)   #612
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I would like to hear/read, what this independent barrister they brought in has to say.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 16:55 (Ref:4198676)   #613
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Strange term "independent barrister" since they are all independent. Company lawyers may develop legal strategies but they don't do the court/investigative work. Mainly because, under English Law, they can use legal privilege.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 17:10 (Ref:4198677)   #614
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Innocent until proven guilty…
That's an interesting point, in that the 'guilt' also depends on whether this is (would) be considered a criminal or civil matter.

The wording of the response from Red Bull suggests that this is being (currently) handled as a civil matter - and whilst there is still a presumed innocence, it is worth noting that the threshold for guilt is a 'balance of probability' rather than 'beyond reasonable doubt'.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 17:23 (Ref:4198680)   #615
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Off course - and I know this is a radical thought - maybe Horner is innocent as found by a KC and the other party "had an axe to grind" Like I said just a thought.....
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 17:26 (Ref:4198681)   #616
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So Christian Horner has been cleared, but had his name dragged through the mud for almost a month. Meanwhile the complainant has had her allegations rejected (therefore they were presumably either mischievous or mistaken) and retains anonymity. There's something not quite fair there.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 17:27 (Ref:4198683)   #617
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The investigation report is confidential and contains the private information of the parties and third parties who assisted in the investigation

Oh no not another Party gate scandal !!
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 18:48 (Ref:4198699)   #618
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I would like to hear/read, what this independent barrister they brought in has to say.
I tend to think "independent" might be setting unrealistic expectations here. I would assume he was hired to provide a report to Red Bull. So while he might be an outside party, he was hired by Red Bull and it is Red Bull's report. I have seen reports elsewhere (can't point to an article) that he was specifically selected by the Yoovidhya family. But that might be purely gossip.

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Off course - and I know this is a radical thought - maybe Horner is innocent as found by a KC and the other party "had an axe to grind" Like I said just a thought.....
Remains a possibility. And without more information being made public, you can view either position as potentially true.

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So Christian Horner has been cleared, but had his name dragged through the mud for almost a month. Meanwhile the complainant has had her allegations rejected (therefore they were presumably either mischievous or mistaken) and retains anonymity. There's something not quite fair there.
Was he cleared? You will easily find plenty of headlines written that say something like "Horner cleared of wrongdoing". But that is not what the statement from Red Bull says. It says "the grievance has been dismissed". While we might say this is semantics, I think it would be naive to say the wording of that statement was not purposeful and frankly a bit vague.

You could apply any of the following statements and not be at odds with the Red Bull press release...
* No wrongdoings whatsoever, so no reason to fire Horner
* Some questionable or borderline behavior but they decided not to fire Horner
* Inappropriate behavior found but a private settlement was reached with all parties and Horner remains employed.

(There is a fourth option in which there were issues and Red Bull are just closing it down incorrectly and playing chicken with the claimant to do something, but I think that is doubtful)

Other speculation is if Horner will take legal action against the media. But I assume that might bring the report out into the open and that might not actually be a good thing if he is not actually squeaky clean. I am thinking he will not and see if it blows over. But lets see what happens.

Oh... one last thing. What is my personal opinion of the three (or four) scenarios above? I think if it was the first, it wouldn't have dragged on so long after the investigation was complete. I think the truth is in the area of the second and third option.

Richard

Last edited by Richard C; 28 Feb 2024 at 18:53.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 18:57 (Ref:4198703)   #619
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I tend to think "independent" might be setting unrealistic expectations here. I would assume he was hired to provide a report to Red Bull. So while he might be an outside party, he was hired by Red Bull and it is Red Bull's report. I have seen reports elsewhere (can't point to an article) that he was specifically selected by the Yoovidhya family. But that might be purely gossip.

The barrister was hired to question Horner over the allegations.


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...er-allegations
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 19:34 (Ref:4198711)   #620
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The barrister was hired to question Horner over the allegations.


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...er-allegations
I might be being pedantic on this, but I don't think that is correct. The barrister wasn't hired to question Horner, he was hired to lead the investigation and present this to Red Bull. Of which questioning Horner was part of it.

My point I am making above is that while Red Bull is using the word "independent" as part of the investigation. On it's face that is to imply "impartiality" in people's minds. But one doesn't mean the other. I haven't read their press releases, but I don't know if they said they brought someone into to perform an "impartial" investigation or not. I suspect not. They clearly knew that if they were using internal resources (which the may have already) that it wouldn't play well from a press perspective.

Who knows what parameters were put forth to the barrister? One option might be... "Run this independently and go where it leads you. We will provide you with whatever you need. We want to know the truth" or it might have been "We need to understand our exposure here? How can we navigate this with the least amount of damage?" Mix in a bit of "wink wink, nudge nudge" as to the desired outcome.. or not! We will never know. But I see nothing about any of this that says this was a truly independent and/or impartial investigation. It might very well have been. But Red Bull is holding all of the specifics private.

I am not saying Horner is guilty or that Red Bull is acting in a nefarious way. But... Red Bull is doing a good job of keeping details closed so that it allows for this type of cynical perspective to exist. They should have the best PR team you can buy. So maybe they are hiding something if they are not being more open. And when I mean "open" it doesn't mean they have to provide the report to the public, but they can provide more specifics on how the investigation was to work (i.e. state they want the truth), how the decision making process works (i.e. who is making the call one way or another) and if Horner was cleared of all allegations or not.

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Old 28 Feb 2024, 19:36 (Ref:4198712)   #621
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Autosport story here - comments on the story are interesting, particularly as there are regularly anti-Horner comments made on stories on that site.


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Was he cleared? You will easily find plenty of headlines written that say something like "Horner cleared of wrongdoing". But that is not what the statement from Red Bull says. It says "the grievance has been dismissed". While we might say this is semantics, I think it would be naive to say the wording of that statement was not purposeful and frankly a bit vague.

You could apply any of the following statements and not be at odds with the Red Bull press release...
* No wrongdoings whatsoever, so no reason to fire Horner
* Some questionable or borderline behavior but they decided not to fire Horner
* Inappropriate behavior found but a private settlement was reached with all parties and Horner remains employed.

(There is a fourth option in which there were issues and Red Bull are just closing it down incorrectly and playing chicken with the claimant to do something, but I think that is doubtful)
Yes, he has been cleared. The wording that the "grievance has been dismissed" is unequivocal and is both definite and strong in regard to statements made about legal matters.

The statement from RB doesn't support options 2, 3 or 4 in the scenarios that you offer above. If those scenarios did exist, the statement wouldn't be as unequivocal and for example, the reference to making it clear that the complainant has a right of appeal means that option 3 isn't correct.

Quite simply, someone made a complaint, it was investigated thoroughly (including interviews with 3rd parties) and dismissed - meaning that the investigation has found no evidence to support the complaint.

Interesting to see on the Autosport article linked above that a number of comments claim that the Dutch "journalist" who claimed to know all, claimed to have texts is now back-peddling - hard.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 19:52 (Ref:4198714)   #622
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I might be being pedantic on this, but I don't think that is correct. The barrister wasn't hired to question Horner, he was hired to lead the investigation and present this to Red Bull. Of which questioning Horner was part of it.

I haven't read their press releases, but I don't know if they said they brought someone into to perform an "impartial" investigation or not.

I am not saying Horner is guilty or that Red Bull is acting in a nefarious way. But... Red Bull is doing a good job of keeping details closed so that it allows for this type of cynical perspective to exist.
Red Bull's statement in full here.

"independent" is a widely used legal term that implies impartiality - is often used in mediation of legal disputes for example - "independent mediator appointed". Independent legally means that the investigator is not subject to direction, although terms of reference (effectively parameters) to an independent investigation can be put in place.

Details HAVE to be closed - Red Bull is not entitled to release information that might identify the complainant, unless of course the complainant identifies themselves or agrees for the information to be released. There are strong legal protections in place in most countries for complainants to prevent their public identification, unless they agree to be identified.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 20:07 (Ref:4198719)   #623
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Well he’s been cleared, but there’s still some unanswered questions, like why he wasn’t made to temporarily step aside while the investigation was ongoing. Or what was the accusation and who made it
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 20:07 (Ref:4198720)   #624
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Quite simply, someone made a complaint, it was investigated thoroughly (including interviews with 3rd parties) and dismissed - meaning that the investigation has found no evidence to support the complaint.

Almost spitting hairs, but it could also mean that they could not find sufficient evidence, which is not quite the same.
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Old 28 Feb 2024, 20:18 (Ref:4198725)   #625
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Almost spitting hairs, but it could also mean that they could not find sufficient evidence, which is not quite the same.
True - that could be the case (although that of itself shoots down the claims made by the Dutch "journalist" to have seen alleged texts) but when third parties were also interviewed, the "no evidence" statement does get stronger.
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