Prospective new teams for the FIA F1 World Championship.

[bjohnsonsmith]

FIA president Mohammed Ben Sulayem, has asked his FIA team to look at launching an Expressions of Interest process for prospective new teams for the FIA F1 World Championship.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...grid/10416452/

[Greem]

Without referring to TFA...

Hahah haaaa hahahahah.

I will now go and read TFA and if my opinion changes I will reply accordingly.

[chunterer]

I sincerely hope the FIA plan to tell the F1 teams that the existing teams don't get to decide who enters!

[S griffin]

Yes it should be up to the FIA to decide and more teams will come in handy if any pull out. But not too many teams entering

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I sincerely hope the FIA plan to tell the F1 teams that the existing teams don't get to decide who enters!

I couldn't agree more.It will also provide a way for those made redundant due to the cost cap to continue working in F1.

[steve_r]

The more the merrier. If every team is under a cost cap, then it paves the way for new teams to join and eventually be competitive.

The Manor, HRT and Caterham / Lotus teams who joined on the understanding that all F1 teams would be under a budget limit were royally shafted by the goalposts being moved. Their lack of competitivity and inevitable demise was a poor reflection on those running the sport at the time.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Greem

Without referring to TFA...

Hahah haaaa hahahahah.

I will now go and read TFA and if my opinion changes I will reply accordingly.

Still laughing. It would require wholesale changes in the way that F1/FOM/FIA governance and rules structures are put together; it feels to me like Ben Sulayem wants even more control over F1 than the FIA already have.

Andretti aside, who else would be willing to put together an entire team to build a car, obtain an engine, and then have at least $200M if not more to give to the other teams for letting the new team play with their ball?

On a related note: has there ever been proper multi-class racing in FIA single seaters? It'd be interesting to see F1 and F2 cars on the same grid, by way of an example.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Greem

Andretti aside, who else would be willing to put together an entire team to build a car, obtain an engine, and then have at least $200M if not more to give to the other teams for letting the new team play with their ball?

Porsche for one?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Greem

On a related note: has there ever been proper multi-class racing in FIA single seaters? It'd be interesting to see F1 and F2 cars on the same grid, by way of an example.

Maybe not during the FIA's regime, but didn't F1s and F2s race together in the 50s and 60s? And I don't know whether my memory is playing tricks on me but weren't there the odd occasion that one or two Indy cars also appeared in some races back then?

And for an old fart, what does TFA mean?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Maybe not during the FIA's regime, but didn't F1s and F2s race together in the 50s and 60s? And I don't know whether my memory is playing tricks on me but weren't there the odd occasion that one or two Indy cars also appeared in some races back then?

And for an old fart, what does TFA mean?

Re the racing question - I don't know! Maybe in non-championship races?

TFA - The Fine Article. Or any other word beginning with F that might be used adjectivally

[BTCC frog]

Caterham, Marussia and HRT certainly added 'value' to the sport at the start of the 2010s when they raced as the backmarker teams. The brief moments that they stood out were particularly exciting. Narain Karthikeyan running in the top six for half a lap for HRT in Malaysia 2012 springs to mind, as does Giedo van der Garde finishing third in Q1 in Spa 2013 for Caterham, Jules Bianchi finishing ninth in Monaco 2014, Bianchi and Chilton very briefly making it a Marussia 1-2 towards the end of Q1 in Silverstone 2014. Having three teams at the back for everyone to root for, hoping they would make Q2 or score a point, was a big highlight of the early 2010s.

I think three spots should be open for new teams, and if they join and are able to battle in the midfield or even at the top then that would be great, but if, more likely, they struggle and are consistently at the back, then no harm done. That would be good too.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Maybe not during the FIA's regime, but didn't F1s and F2s race together in the 50s and 60s? And I don't know whether my memory is playing tricks on me but weren't there the odd occasion that one or two Indy cars also appeared in some races back then?

I'm not sure about different series racing together, but Ascari's two F1 titles were in cars run to F2 regs, if that could be what you were thinking of?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Maybe not during the FIA's regime, but didn't F1s and F2s race together in the 50s and 60s? And I don't know whether my memory is playing tricks on me but weren't there the odd occasion that one or two Indy cars also appeared in some races back then?

Mike, they used to run F2 cars as well as F1 at times at the Nurburgring.(1966/7/9 I know for sure) I believe that was to do with the long lap and to give the spectators more cars to look at... on the basis of with F2 cars there would always be a car within sight of spectators rather than waiting for the F1 cars to come round. (That reason might be my imagination but it rings a bell in my head)

A famous instance was Ickx in 1967 ran an F2 car at the German GP and ran near the front of the field until a DNF from a suspension failure. I know that year there were several F2 cars running. They did not qualify for points IIRC. Oliver was first F2 car to finish, in 5th but got no points. Looking at the race result I note that due to F2 cars, Guy Ligier finished 8th on the road, but as the 6th F1 car to finish, scored a point.
Results/entry show the F2 cars entered:
Results: https://www.statsf1.com/en/1967/alle...lassement.aspx
Entry list: https://www.statsf1.com/en/1967/allemagne/engages.aspx

More vague without looking it up is my memory on whether they all started together or whether the F2 started with a short delay.


Re Indy type cars running in GPs the one instance of an American type race car, (maybe not an actual Indycar), that comes to mind was Roger Ward ran a Kurtis Kraft Offenhauser midget car at the 1959 USGP at Sebring. I know he qualified last with a huge gap to pole position. He DNF'd during the race.

In fact a pic of Ward at that race. (running #1!)

[E.B]

Forgot to mention they did have, nothing to do with F1 championship wise, an exhibition race for a couple of years which was meant to be F1 v Indy cars, at Monza (I think on the oval). Billed as Race of Two Worlds , aka Monzapolis, the Monza 500, it was not quite as planned with many F1 cars and drivers saying no thanks, particularly the first year but they tried it for two years, 1957 and '58. Second year was slightly better but not the show it was expected to be and fizzled out.

More details here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Two_Worlds

[Mike Harte]

Thanks for that, Chris. At least some of my little grey cells are still functioning, even if everything else is going to hell in a hand cart!

[S griffin]

Let's hope two more teams join in the next year or two, 10 teams on the grid isn't enough. It would give more opportunities to drivers if we had 12 teams

[Greem]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Porsche for one?

Ah yes. Although I do still wonder whether the Audi team-up with Sauber/Alfa will affect VAG's planning in that regard. I know they're essentially separate entities working in different markets, mostly, with their own budgets and such but will the corporate entity be happy with two sets of F1 costs on the go?

Would Porsche team up with Andretti?

[steve_r]

You mean to say that VAG actually joining F1 will not kill off the VAG to F1 rumour thread?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by steve_r

You mean to say that VAG actually joining F1 will not kill off the VAG to F1 rumour thread?

Until SEAT & Skoda run teams - correct!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Greem

…it feels to me like Ben Sulayem wants even more control over F1 than the FIA already have…

Admittedly or cynically, having the same thoughts.

With the requirement to field at least 10 teams per each GP (if that is still the requirement), can’t help but feel that a new team, one green lighted by this president, will not only conform to the be seen but not heard philosophy but will also serve as a hedge if and when the FIA decide to sit out a team for a race because they had the gall to speak on issues like equal rights or the environment or frankly any social cause that that team’s customers and supporters care about.

Far fetched perhaps, but the current leadership doesn’t inspire much confidence imo.

[chillibowl]

As a side thought tho, what would it take for an existing f2 to scale up to a basic f1 level?

Certainly dropping the 200m payout out for starters?

A requirement for any new manu entry to buy into an existing f2 team?

A temporary suspension of the budget cap at least on the capital improvement/factory upgrade side of things?

[V8 Fireworks]

It would be great to see Honda, Porsche and Andretti all join the championship for 26 cars (maximum capacity IIRC) on the grid!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Porsche for one?

I tend to think that while Porsche (VAG) could afford to start up a team from scratch, they are probably smart enough to know that is the difficult path and will instead choose to buy someone or stay out of F1.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

As a side thought tho, what would it take for an existing f2 to scale up to a basic f1 level?

I don't follow F2 at all, but I think the main thing is, that if you start with an F2 team you would have a "racing team", but not a "constructor" (as F2 used spec chassis right?). So they would have to build up that part of the team. Maybe doing something similar to what Haas has done. Hire out and buy as much as you can.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Certainly dropping the 200m payout out for starters?

From an existing F1 teams perspective, regardless of a team starting as F2 and expanding into F1 or a team being started from scratch. The dilution of winnings would be the same. In short, I see no way they would agree to dropping the $200M fee. In fact it seems the teams think the value is too low. The other issue is that it's a one time payment for a longer term dilution. If you think the value of the teams will increase over time, there should be a strong incentive of the existing teams for nobody new to join.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

As a side thought tho, what would it take for an existing f2 to scale up to a basic f1 level?

Certainly dropping the 200m payout out for starters?

A requirement for any new manu entry to buy into an existing f2 team?

A temporary suspension of the budget cap at least on the capital improvement/factory upgrade side of things?

An F2 team just runs a car, most of them would be nowhere near being capable of being a Formula One constructor in their current capacity. At most they would be like HAAS where the design and manufacturing of the car has to contracted out (to Ferrari and Dallara in HAAS' case) and then HAAS just assemble the bits and go racing.

IIRC, Jordan Grand Prix was the last team to make the step, which obviously involves getting a factory, buying autoclaves, buying milling machines, hiring skilled fabricators, machinists and composite technicians, hiring design engineers, setting up a wind tunnel (or renting a wind tunnel), etc. It's obviously the step between running a car built by someone else (in the case of F3000/F2, namely Reynard or Dallara etc) and becoming a constructor yourself. Starting a team from scratch v. upgrading a F2 team is obviously not a big difference in either case, as the majority of being a constructor doesn't apply in F2.

Given the value of the existing F1 franchises now, I don't think Andretti, Porsche or Honda would hesistate at paying a one-off $200m dilution fee. It is quite a negligible cost in the grand scheme of setting up one of 13 now-profitable Formula One franchises, (assuming FOM revenue is extended to 13th, unlike the problematic financials of HRT, Manor, Caterham etc of old).

Whether it's $200m FOM fee plus $200m to setup a factory, or $400m to buy an existing franchise like Williams or Sauber, the costs would be quite similar even with the fee.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If you think the value of the teams will increase over time, there should be a strong incentive of the existing teams for nobody new to join.

Certainly true.

Fans can but dream of 26 cars on the grid.

To be fair, Porsche and Honda had the choice to join and stick around since the 50's, 60's or even 70's when anyone could enter a car and join FOCA (did Ferrari ever join FOCA or was it garagiste only ), yet they foolishly did not do so!

Heck Renault even foolishly closed down their proudly French flagship continental team and bought out and stuck their name on some lowly English garagiste team instead. [Then they sold it and then they bought it back again?! The pride of French being carried on a car built by English men and English women -- yikes, same for Mercedes and the pride of Germany... To think of how much the garagistes have achieved in centring the vast majority of the Formula One industry within 100 miles of Silverstone racing circuit -- incredible, absolutely incredible!]

[E.B]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

.....IIRC, Jordan Grand Prix was the last team to make the step, which obviously involves getting a factory, buying autoclaves, buying milling machines, hiring skilled fabricators, machinists and composite technicians, hiring design engineers, setting up a wind tunnel (or renting a wind tunnel), etc. It's obviously the step between running a car built by someone else (in the case of F3000/F2, namely Reynard or Dallara etc) and becoming a constructor yourself.....

I guess it would be Toyota. in the early noughties.

There were the three teams c 2010, but Hispania / HRT were only ever wanting to be nothing different from Haas ie buying a Dallara Chassis etc. Virgin / Marussia arguably with their Simtek/Wirth and Manor partnerships are borderline existing racing businesses making the step up.

Caterham / Lotus other than the Lotus name... well I dont know where or how to position them given they ran as Lotus.

But Toyota were a proper set up from scratch sort of project that included building its own engine IIRC