[LM24] Le Mans: Did the Peugeot driver break the rules?

[Dragaan]

We all saw it. On the final lap, the Peugeot driver pulled over on the final corner to wait for the Audi to come past. It would seem that he was in contravention of the rules. What do you think?

ACO Sporting Regulations

I'm refering to article 25.2.2 part (a) which states:

'Its is FORBIDDEN to stop on the race track, waiting for the chequered flag'

Opinions anyone?

[isynge]

The RLM commentary, well before this incident, seemed to indicate that the minimum last lap time had fallen by the wayside, but nothing about the specific ACO rule you cite.

My initial reaction on seeing the Peugeot pull off was that that was that - all over, and certainly when it limped across the line it was clear that the car was finished (smoke was pouring from all sorts of the wrong bits). All things being equal that should have been Pescarolos 2nd and 3rd, and heartbreak for Peugeot, but seeing the 9o08 limp across the line and Bourdais' obvious pleasure kind of redeemed it.

My mind is to let it be. 2nd is about right for Peugeot's effort this year, and 3rd about right for Pescarolo. Sure I'd have loved to see the two Pescarolos on the podium but deep down the Peugeot was a quicker car and massive kudos to them for lasting so long. My gut feeling is they slightly mistimed their exit from the pits to do the last lap and if they paused for a couple of minutes well, okay. If it was the 25 hours of Le Mans I suspect Pescarolo would have had won it overall (the 1 Audi was producing a lot of white smoke towards the end) but it's not and that's just the way it is.

Personally I profoundly disliked the brief period when the car didn't have to cross the line to be classified, by the same token the last lap speed rule seemed iffy - witness Intersport last year.

I'm pleased the result didn't get enmired in a protest, it was a troubled enough end (even if I slightlu dispute Janos Wimpffen's description of it as tedium) without people reaching for the rule book.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Dragaan

We all saw it. On the final lap, the Peugeot driver pulled over on the final corner to wait for the Audi to come past. It would seem that he was in contravention of the rules. What do you think?

ACO Sporting Regulations

I'm refering to article 25.2.2 part (a) which states:



Opinions anyone?

That is what the rule states, but had anyone protested (even the "beloved" Henri) there would have been pandemonium and possibly a lynching!

L.P.

[Mr Revhead]

whats the bet if there were audis in 3rd and/or 4th there wouldv been a protest?

[Dragaan]

Could you have imagined the pandemonium if every car had decided to queue up and wait for the Audi! lol

Yes, I agree that the drivers and mechanics of that Peugeot had worked hard for that place and I take nothing away from them (did you see their faces when the car pulled over? Classic heart attacks! :P) but the fact remains that in the time it would have taken them to do one more lap, absolutely anything could have happened, including them spinning off and trashing the car. Ok, so the chances of that happening were remote and my desire to have seen that happen is non-existant, but I guess we'll never know now.

I agree that a protest would have mired the race end for the home team, but by the same token, I have lost alot of respect for the team now and I suspect I'm not the only one. It was bad enough that they hid in the garage for so long. It made a mockery of the other teams that were still out there.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Dragaan

I agree that a protest would have mired the race end for the home team, but by the same token, I have lost alot of respect for the team now and I suspect I'm not the only one. It was bad enough that they hid in the garage for so long. It made a mockery of the other teams that were still out there.

RLM expressed similar sentiments when they said that while Peugeot had done the business on the track they had a hill to climb in terms of PR etc. I can appreciate they didn't want to make a big splash fearing that their race wouldn't see nightfall, but the whole refusal to let anyone see into the engine bay and overall secretiveness don't really help.

Don't knock hiding in the garage - there were an awful lot of cars sitting in the pits during that last safety car period - and why not? The weather was utterly gopping and if you don't have to run why risk the result? Peugeot did just enough. They didn't do so prettily and it probably wasn't what they wanted, but that's racing for better or worse. I suspect we can all think of worse instances of teams playing the rules.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by isynge

Personally I profoundly disliked the brief period when the car didn't have to cross the line to be classified, by the same token the last lap speed rule seemed iffy - witness Intersport last year.

What did Intersport do last year?

[rcarr]

This has happened year upon year! There is nothing wrong with it!

[isynge]

Originally Posted by bil588

What did Intersport do last year?

Puncture on last lap leading to very very slow lap well outside the slowest permissable time. For them to have been disqualified for it would have been a travesty and thankfully common sense prevailed.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by rcarr

This has happened year upon year! There is nothing wrong with it!

Other than the fact that the rules very specifically don't allow it!

I have no problem with the fact that Peugeot were allowed to ignore that rule in this case but it does beg the question - If you are going to ignore the rule then why is it there in the first place?

[Piglet]

The Peugeot situation clearly breached the regulations and it is frustrating that Shorty was kept off the podium by the actions of Peugeot and the inactions of the organisors. One can only wonder what might have happened had the tables been turned!

The requirement for a competitor not to stop on the track to await the chequered flag is included in both the Sporting Regulations (25.2.2 (a)) and also the Supplementary Regulations (25.2.5 (C)). It's very clear and I don't see why there would be any difficulty about applying it (other than the obvious one!).

For interest the usually all knowing Mr Trusswell was wrong - the six minute lap reg still applies it's in 25.2.5(C) of the Supplementary Regs., it is subject to force majeure at the Steward's descretion which presumably would apply to the remainder of the field not managing a sub 6 minute lap - the Peugeot of course took over 10 minutes to do its last lap.

The Peugeot also stopped on the pit straight and the driver got out before the car went to parc ferme - this is in beach of Sporting Regulation 25.3.2 which requires a car to proceed to parc ferme within the shortest delay.

As Graham says, there isn't much point in having regulations if they are not going to apply, racing without regulations is pointless.

(BTW - keeping the car in the garage is covered by different regs which require a car to have completed a distance at least equal to 70% of the distance covered by the winning car - a wet race makes this easier).

[paul-collins]

FWIW, the Peugeot only had first gear. I know it has no bearing on the 6 minute rule, but surely the fact that even race pace at that time was just under 6 minutes, and you had the marshals waving their flags and slowing things down for the final lap would have some bearing on whether they could enforce the rule.

[Trussers]

Hello Ten-tenthers!

I don't normally do the message board thing, but having led you all astray by saying that the six-minute last lap rule had gone... I thought an apology was in order.

Yes, I messed up there... put it down to fatigue.

But it would seem that the Peugeot broke the rules, both the one preventing stopping on the circuit to await the chequered flag and the one about parc ferme. The six minute rule is easily over-ruleable because of force majeure.

But what can you do about it? As has been said already, once the car is given the flag, how do you stop the drivers getting up on the podium?

Then again, the Champion Audi crossed the line two years ago with only one headlight working... also in breach of the regs.

All in all, there were a number of elements of the race to forget... which is a shame, because in many ways it had lots of the ingredients of a classic.

Paul Truswell - Radio Le Mans

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Trussers

But what can you do about it? As has been said already, once the car is given the flag, how do you stop the drivers getting up on the podium?

I guess take the position away afterwards. Didn't this happen to Coultard in the Jag some years ago after they won the class? I read in an interview that he didn't give the trophy back though!

[Piglet]

Hello Trussers, nice to see you here. Apologies for the additional "s" I notice I gave you in my first post. The additional reg was easily missed and given how long you'd been sat in your little box I'm not surprised you missed it! And as you say, the six minute rule was not going to be key in this situation as there were more relevant infringements.

I guess two things could have happened, the Race Director could have spotted the infringement and taken action either before or after the podium. That would be my preference, it is up to those in Race Control to take the necessary action to enforce their own regulations.

Secondly, if the Race Director had taken no action other competitors could have protested within the protest period and put their money on the table (quite a lot at this level).

For me it leaves a bad feeling, if regs are in place they should be enforced fairly and consistently so that all competitors know where they stand.

[The359]

Is two lights on on the car necessary at the finish of the race, well in daylight?

[Adam43]

AFAIK, you need two lights to be on at all times. This rule was introduced relatively recently. Early in the race someone was held at the end of the pitlane because their front lights weren't working well.

[Trussers]

Agree with you Piglet, the Race Director should be on the ball and take the appropriate action - namely, preventing the drivers from getting on the podium.

One small problem is that although the rule is clear that it is "forbidden" it doesn't say what the penalty is for a breach. In other areas it clearly states what is the penalty (e.g. stop and go, exclusion, etc). Maybe this is how the team managers know how seriously the rule is going to be taken.

Not sure that it should ever be up to the entrant to protest the organisation though... talking of bad feelings...Can't see Martin Short protesting Peugeot, somehow, can you?

One other way I have seen this work is an outraged commentator shouting "they can't do that... the race director has to take action!" and sure enough, action is taken.
PT

[isynge]

I think this is a classic case where spirit and letter of the law come into play, and as ever with anything so subjective, it all gets very tricky.

I can see the six-minute rule being waived in the case of force majeure e.g. a puncture, loss of significant gears, etc, and so long as the car limps round it should be fine, equally if a car stops on the last lap, and the driver has a bit of a fiddle (even if it is kicking the tyres) and gets across the line, again, no real problem. Parking just before the finishing line and then driving across after the leader is taking the mickey a bit more, and denies the ACO the plausible deniability of force majeure.

What to do? Well, it's Peugeot, they're unlikely to be disqualified, nobody's in the mood to protest, but perhaps a mild slap - a trivialish (relatively speaking) fine might cover it.

As far as Bourdais' celebrations went, I for one was pleased, it made for a lovely sight and a great photo opportunity.

All in all I think it's one to forget about and move on, for all that it irks.

[PascaLM]

If it's forbidden to stop on the track waiting for the checkered flag, why does this rule propose no penalty at all ?
A pit-stop !...
Another lap !...
Several less laps...

As said before the rules have to be applied with wisdom (that wasn't the case, when in 2006 or 2005, a Pesca was forced to lose 20 minutes for a missing light).

[kdr]

we should remember that this was a race where one car was written off and replaced by an almost entirely different one...so whats a little dawdling on the last lap between friends!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Trussers

One small problem is that although the rule is clear that it is "forbidden" it doesn't say what the penalty is for a breach. In other areas it clearly states what is the penalty (e.g. stop and go, exclusion, etc). Maybe this is how the team managers know how seriously the rule is going to be taken.

I think that's what's usually known as a "picky lawyer's point" isn't it?

It's clearly forbidden, the fact that there is no penalty shown just means one wouldn't get bogged down in what the penalty should be? Where the reg's do show penalties they are often more vague - like the one relating to the penalty for not going to Parc Ferme ASAP.

If one were really analysing the reg's (and I guess the French wording probably takes precedence anyway?) many other sections say "at the discretion of the Stewards" or subject to force majeure etc. the fact that this section does not give discretion to anyone could indicate that it is an absolute regulation with no room for "slippage"?

Being the anorak that I am I'd have quite like to have seen someone appeal it to see how it was argued

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by kdr

we should remember that this was a race where one car was written off and replaced by an almost entirely different one...so whats a little dawdling on the last lap between friends!

I don't think it was almost entirely different was it? I think it WAS entirely different and would only have had two drivers (had it got past lap 2!)

[The359]

I imagine if a team like Rollcentre protested the Peugeot, they'd ind themselves not likely to be invited back next year

[Lusitano]

Ah, as long as they did not get first place, I am fine with it. That does not mean I am happy with it, but so many breachs of the rules have taken place over the years that rules are becoming meaningless.

And, as in any other sport, rules is what makes it interesting.