2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

So... may the best win, because someone wont agree to share (LMIC).

So, the LMIC is a European series only? is that what you're implying? Like others posting here, I believe you and they are competely missing the point.

[Mal]

I am not an expert in American racing but it seems to me that what ALMS really needs is to build a strong base of private teams that are in it for fun. The trouble with manufacturers is that they come and go to suit their marketing strategy and always will.

This is where the LMS is winning in that it has created a base of 50 odd cars that are largely privateer base and are probably in it for the long haul.

LMS is not without problems and the ACO could learn a lot from the way ALMS runs and promotes its race weekends, but it does usually have a good car count.

Why is it then that the American privateers are not attracted to ALMS - are there other better options - or too many options? or is it Grand Am that takes them away?

[Purist]

GA, NASA, SCCA, and SWC certainly grab some of them. Others probably don't want to deal with the works, or works-supported, teams anyway. Most of the private chassis builders of LMPs are European, which has an impact on how easy and expensive it is to get equipment. Also, Europe has ~800 million people, whereas there are only ~300 million here in the States (and it's still only ~450 million people if you include Mexico and Canada), which likely means there are simply fewer privateers over here to begin with.

Huge, I think the point being made was that a number of the posters here think, and rightly so, that a majority of the LMIC events will be in Europe right from the off. If making North American races part of the LMIC is not a real added draw for manufacturers to run those races over here, the LMIC will basically become exclusively held over in Europe, but the manufacturers have already pulled out of full-time commitment to the LMS. Therefore, what would then be the point of having an LMIC at all?

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

There is a lot of 'Old Continent" Colonial arrogance that i don't like in some european state of mind. The same goes for those in that part of world that thinks that anything that is american is best or more important than anything else. That's why its ridiculous... its all about thinking that anything outside US is just a meaningless bunch of crap.



Sorry, but it didn't cross my mind to apply Purist words to you, because as you say: "You don't know anything about me and I about you". Just used them as an example of what makes possible to exist the kind of thinking i described above.

I wasn't saying that anything outside the U.S. was meaningless crap. I was merely saying, from the US sportscar fans' perspective, interest in the 24 Hours of Le Mans peaks and wains with the success or lack thereof of the American Le Mans Series - or at least that is what I have observed over the existence of the ALMS. The American Le Mans Series shouldn't have to sacrifice its existing championship to ensure the success of a global championship. A global championship would have little traction in the U.S. with only one or two races here. Is that as a result of the American fan not being constantly bombarded with a "superior" American product? No. It has to do with the fact that there is a massive gulf between U.S. and European motor racing culture that will be extremely hard to bridge unless we are given access to something similar to tide us over from say, March to September.

Chris

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

So, the LMIC is a European series only? is that what you're implying? Like others posting here, I believe you and they are competely missing the point.

Absolutely not! What i'm saying is:

1. North Americans want to see the best pilots and teams in ALMS
2. Europeans want to see, also, the best pilots and teams in the LMS
3. If this is all about 'saving our (series) ass' in this economical down turn... than may the best win! The alternative is joining forces in a global series: LMIC is the way to have the best pilots and the best team in both series.

Missing what point? That without works entries and big professional pilots ALMS will fall down? That we, Europeans (LMS), have to contempt with the lesser good pilots and the privateers? The best for ALMS and the rest for LMS?

Missing the point? The point is that ALMS has to change with or without LMIC. A series based only on manufactures and professionals pilots canot sustain herself forever. Even the big, fat and lasy F1 sorted that out this last two years with Honda, Toyota and BMW (Renault is just a name for 2010) pulling the plug.

Things over there already had the warning light blipping before even anything resemble to LMIC start to be talked. Maybe ACO rules are the problem... maybe they don't adjust to the way of the things over there... maybe the best in reality is for IMSA go a totally independent way to 'save' north american sportscar scene... well, IMSA sportscar scene

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

No. It has to do with the fact that there is a massive gulf between U.S. and European motor racing culture that will be extremely hard to bridge unless we are given access to something similar to tide us over from say, March to September.

Well... that is true! But you also have to understand that over here we also want to see works entries in the LMS, big manufactures evolved, the best endurance pilots on the track, and it is evident that they can´t be in both sides of the Atlantic.

Solutions?
1. Keep things as they have been? Works on ALMS and privateers in LMS?
2. Creating a global series?
3. Fight for the survival of the best... series?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Purist

Most of the private chassis builders of LMPs are European, which has an impact on how easy and expensive it is to get equipment. Also, Europe has ~800 million people, whereas there are only ~300 million here in the States (and it's still only ~450 million people if you include Mexico and Canada), which likely means there are simply fewer privateers over here to begin with.

Manufactures are also european or asian... where are the Americans? Chevy? Ford? GM? Others? Why don't they bet on ALMS?

The problem with lack of privateers in US, probably as more to do with the fact that in the ALMS everything has to be so damn professional and hard to reach to the privateers and gentlemen-drivers.

How many works team are in Indy, Nascar, ou Grand-Am?

Originally Posted by Purist

Huge, I think the point being made was that a number of the posters here think, and rightly so, that a majority of the LMIC events will be in Europe right from the off. If making North American races part of the LMIC is not a real added draw for manufacturers to run those races over here, the LMIC will basically become exclusively held over in Europe, but the manufacturers have already pulled out of full-time commitment to the LMS. Therefore, what would then be the point of having an LMIC at all?

Point me out where did you see "that a majority of the LMIC events will be in Europe right from the off."?
Did ACO said it? Where?
The point is: There will be in 2010 equal round is North-America, Europe an Asia, and for 2011, the only thing we know is that they want a minimum of 6 rounds...

And, manufactures will always want to go at sebring and petit le mans... the problem with audi this year was not LMIC but the changes that they had to made in car and the fact that Peugeot was not available to accept an Audi is sebring not complying 100% with the rules.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Mal

I am not an expert in American racing but it seems to me that what ALMS really needs is to build a strong base of private teams that are in it for fun. The trouble with manufacturers is that they come and go to suit their marketing strategy and always will.

That's something that they don't seem to understand... if they are 'going', is not their fault! It's LMIC, ACO, whatever, fault!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Fair enough, miscommunication... the biggest problem with internet forums is conveying exactly what you mean through a keyboard.

I can assure you that myself and the others that have posted in defense to the ALMS (let's not forget our Canadian friends that show up in great numbers) have what's best for sportscar racing at heart. We are all here posting because of Le Mans, sportscar racing Mecca. It is in no way, shape, or form, crap.

i'll drink to that!

Originally Posted by JHamilton

What I feel may not being conveyed strongly enough is the dire straits of the ALMS. If the ALMS fails for whatever reason, be it the LMIC or a list of other reasons, the biggest loss will not be teams or sponsors (IMO) but the tracks. I think Sebring and Road Atlanta would be swallowed up by Nascar, losing their connection with Le Mans all together. This is the major concern. We (N. Americans) want to be involved with international sportscar racing, but if we lose the ALMS or PMG we potentially lose that connection. I think that the loss of Sebring and PLM would be a huge loss to international motorsport, therefore, what affects the ALMS is or should be a concern to all fans.

OK. And why not joining forces with (i know... nascar owns it) Grand-Am? Why two sportscar championships???

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Arrogant? Maybe. But you gotta pull for the home team right?

No question about that

[Purist]

There won't be any "joining of forces", as NASCAR can just wait things out, if that's all they have to do, and then have complete control of this arena too, at which point, they may just dump GA too to concentrate on NASCAR itself. There's been a lot of talk since the takeover that NASCAR seems to be putting the big bike series over here in a situation where it'll be run into the ground in the next few years.

This is a bit odd, but it sounds like you want the factories for Europe and you want the ALMS to now make due with privateers, but I thought privateers were too fickle to be counted on.

I might mention that manufacturer dollars in promotion of events is probably no small part of why ALMS races have been so well attended.

As for American factories, Corvette is in GT2, Chrysler is in no position to make a real commitment, and Ford may see fit to support the GT program, after the Robertson car grabbed pole at PLM. However, the "Big Three" have of late cut back their NASCAR involvement, which means there's no chance of an American prototype any time soon. Let's face it, NASCAR in the wider spectrum is the only show in town in motorsport in the US (aside from the Indy 500 itself); that sanction body has the manufacturers' attentions, and they have no reason to change that as the ALMS is nowhere by comparison.

And really, even with IMSA, we largely counted on European and Japanese equipment in the GTP ranks. I mean, how many races did the Corvette GTP actually win and how many cars did they ever have on track? The Pontiac Fiero GTP? The Ford Mustang/Probe GTP? The Chevy Intrepid GTP? Now, how many wins did the Porsche 962 pick up and how many cars did they have on track? The Nissan ZXT/NPT GTP? The Eagle Toyota GTP? The point is, there hasn't been the real commitment by any one of the "Big Three" to sportscar racing in the top class(es) since the original GT40. Compared to that effort, the Ford C100, Chrysler/Mopar LMP, and Cadillac Northstar LMP were all rather small blips on the radar.

You are incorrect; Sebring and PLM are being run strictly to ACO regulations this year, so Audi and Peugeot have no excuse not to show.

Just about every NASCAR team gets some sort of works support/backing. They either get it directly, or indirectly through whichever engine shop they get their motors from. GA has teams who are effectively the chassis constructors' works teams in DP. Brumos has gotten Porsche factory support. The main Porsche protagonists in GA GT get factory support. The #07 Corvette and the Stevenson Camaros are Pratt & Miller jobs, so those teams are getting some factory support from Chevy. You also have to realize that a lot of those GA GTs are tube-framers, so those cars are much more optimized in some ways right from the get-go, but I would expect that Mazda isn't completely in the back seat when it comes to those RX-8s.

Indy doesn't need factory teams; Penske and Ganassi are effectively filling that role just fine in relation to the rest of the field as things are right now.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

OK. And why not joining forces with (i know... nascar owns it) Grand-Am? Why two sportscar championships

Oh gimme a break !!! ..... cuz those things are bloody awful for a start , and there is probably more crap politics in Grand-Pram .

The Le Mans series of events are run under international rules , meaning ALMS , AsLMS and LMS ..... so then Grand-Am should fall into place , not the other way around .

Politics over Porsche against the first 962 , the Porsche LM P1 and the 996 gt3 RSR spring to mind .

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Purist

This is a bit odd, but it sounds like you want the factories for Europe and you want the ALMS to now make due with privateers, but I thought privateers were too fickle to be counted on.

For a last time: I prefer a global series with the best rounds of the ALMS and LMS... what i don't want is one of the series having all the factory team and the other none. Have i make myself clear?

I can admit that probably that would not work with nowadays state of things, but i wont admit that the future of sportscar is depending of having a full professional factory backed ALMS, leaving us over here wit the left overs.... That is not an option. Not even the reverse...

The fact is, ALMS needs the privateers as much LMS needs factory teams...

Originally Posted by Purist

You are incorrect; Sebring and PLM are being run strictly to ACO regulations this year, so Audi and Peugeot have no excuse not to show.

Sorry but you didn't understant. Audi said (believe it or not) that they could not make the necessary arrangement in order to the R15 be according with the 2010 set or rules. They asked Peugeot if they didn't mind if they ddo Sebring with an half 2009 spec/half 2010 spec R15, and Peugeot said no! Audi will be at Petit Le Mans for the LMIC round, but not in Sebring for the reason i explained. Peugeot is going to Sebring to prepare Le Mans, but not a PLM because they wont do LMIC 'couse there is no budget.

[fieldodreams79]

regardless of who get's who and what gets what, a "world" cup or series is only as strong as it's participants. in order to have the world's best and the most teams, there needs to be reasons for them to join. only one race in Asia and two races in the States plus LM doesn't seem to be enough motivation for teams to put forth the effort; i could be wrong. if the ALMS folds or the AsLMS fails to get off the ground, there will be voids in LMIC idea.

there IS a place in WORLD sportscars for North American teams and Asian teams (and drivers). not having them involved, for whatever reason, will make a "world" cup/series a joke. i don't follow the in's and out's of the rules changes (only what i read here), but what i can gather, there needs to be more inclusion and less segregation from all sanctioning bodies or we may soon be left with one race in June. extreme thought, but isn't it possible? more possible is only a ELMS and LM in a couple of years.

[Purist]

If you're taking about the bodywork issues on the Audi R15, didn't they get a waiver, along with several of the other existing LMPs, so that the 2010 rule changes are effectively just for new cars?

LM.pt, the trouble with your idea of factories and privateers in terms of a mix is that you effectively need four manufacturers in a given class, otherwise one side of the pond or the other is likely to have utter factory domination by one make in their series because the automakers don't seem to be running full efforts on both continents at the moment. Now, if you had Audi and Acura in the States and Aston and Peugeot in Europe, that might work for LMP1, but that hasn't happened.

LMP2 isn't supposed to be for factories. You rarely had multiple, concurrent serious efforts in GTS/GT1. The Vipers still largely had the Corvettes swamped until Oreca pulled out to work on the LMP. Lister and Prodrive/Ferrari had some reasonable success, but were relatively short-lived. Saleen didn't provide adequate support. Prodrive/Aston in GT1 was short-lived too, and we really don't know how Vitaphone Maserati would measure up to the Corvette factory.

Also, in the classes other than P1, the LMS has seemed to be less open to the idea of works or semi-works teams than has been the case in the ALMS, which leaves you with a built-in discrepancy between the two series at the moment. Remember that when the M3 GTRs came out in 2001, Schnitzer chose to run in the ALMS too, alongside PTG. Audi wasn't in the LMS for that series' first 3-4 seasons. The Porsche and Acura programs were specifically for North America, and the new M3 GT2s were spawned by BMW North America. Ferrari and Porsche do have squads in Europe that are just as professional as those in the ALMS. I don't think you can be that surprised that the Corvette factory focus is here in the ALMS. Unfortunately, in Eurpope, Spyker can't put up as strong a fight as the major players in GT2, and Aston Martin has neglected the Vantage since they started on their P1 program. And, sadly, just as they had it GT2 homologated, the Gillet Vertigo has simply disappeared.

It just seems to me that, given the choice and the budget, factory efforts prefer to run the ALMS over the LMS. Given the relative crowds and exposure at a given event, I would suspect that the ALMS gives better bang for the buck for manufacturers. If that's the case, the LMS needs to get to work on promotions.

You also should realize that no world series will happen without major manufacturer backing. With just Audi and Peugeot potentially for 2010, I don't see there being enough of that backing for something like this to work on its own merits. In the Group C era, you had 4-8 automakers at any given time. And there never really were fewer than 4, until 1991 that is. It takes the big bucks to go globetrotting, get together enough cars across the globe to make a decent grid, and effective promotion on such a massive scale isn't cheap either.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Purist

If you're taking about the bodywork issues on the Audi R15, didn't they get a waiver, along with several of the other existing LMPs, so that the 2010 rule changes are effectively just for new cars?

No. Neither Audi or Peugeot got one! (the R10 got one under special conditions).
You can see the list on Mike's site.

[WMUCarGuy]

So has anyone made a list of who's confirmed yet for the IC?

2 Audis
2 Peugeots
1 Drayson

Who else?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

So has anyone made a list of who's confirmed yet for the IC?

2 Audis
2 Peugeots
1 Drayson

Who else?

I thought Peugeot were unlikely to do it?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

So has anyone made a list of who's confirmed yet for the IC?

2 Audis
2 Peugeots
1 Drayson

Who else?

2x Audi R15+ | Audi Sport Team Joest
1x Audi R10 | Team Kolles
1x Lola B08 Judd | Drayson Racing
....
that's it
Peugeot wont com in 2010. Quesnel is a strong supporter of a world series, but there is no budget after Le Mans, besides for the new LMP

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Purist

If you're taking about the bodywork issues on the Audi R15, didn't they get a waiver, along with several of the other existing LMPs, so that the 2010 rule changes are effectively just for new cars?

No they didn't.

As for the rest, thanks for your explanations. This is the reason why i came to this forum... to talk an to learn.

Let me finish with this. I've started to watch sportscar racing during Group C era in the 80s and i saw the world championship being ripped off for the survivable of F1, and it would be a youth dream to see a World Championship on the track.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

....and it would be a youth dream to see a World Championship on the track.

we can ALL dream, no?

[Juntos]

I am curious to see where ACO is going to place the Asian race. It's a fact they can't race in big China so they have to go to Japan again.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Juntos

It's a fact they can't race in big China so they have to go to Japan again.

Why not?

[Parramatta_Power]

Originally Posted by Juntos

I am curious to see where ACO is going to place the Asian race. It's a fact they can't race in big China so they have to go to Japan again.

I'm guessing Japan would be the most likely candidate to host such an event. Suzuka would be a great venue for a 500km to 8 Hour event consisting of about 50 GT and LMP cars.

[fieldodreams79]

Okayama and Fuji, come to mind as well...Shanghai was planned but canceled and then there is Malaysia.

many choices, but i would love to see LM cars at Suzuka...

[CTD]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Okayama and Fuji, come to mind as well...Shanghai was planned but canceled and then there is Malaysia.

many choices, but i would love to see LM cars at Suzuka...

Peugeot would love to revisit Suzuka i think.
They had a great race back in 1991 with the 905 (the first edition)