2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by CTD

It would be very tight, but 2 races in South America and 1 in Canada should be possible? (maybe with the lose of a single race in USA)

Argentina has three and a half strong tin-topped series, and a small bunch of teams do have the resorces to run a sports car programme. Brazil has one strong tin-topped series of which I know little than I wrote in Wikipedia, but I guess that the situation is similar except for the little or none manufacturer support. I believe that a Le Mans race in Interlagos and one in Portero de los Funes could work (but not more). However, the FIA GT1 is interfering anyway.

How about a Le Mans Americas Cup with four races: PLM in October, the South American races in Novemeber and/or December, and Sebring in March?

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

the ALMS does remarkably well, having only one country to draw from (lets remember it is a national championship, afterall)

The United States has 310 million people and a GDP of US$ 14 trillion (14 million million). Germany + UK + France + Italy + Spain also have 310 million people and a GDP of US$ 12 trillion. So one could say that both sides of the North Atlantic are more or less equal...

[Purist]

Of course, now, the LMS has only two of those five European nations on its schedule, and I don't think Portugal, Belgium, and Hungary quite equal Germany, Italy, and Spain.

Even if Ferrari had to give away 50k tickets, it would be worth it to have an LMS race with a respectable crowd at Monza.

If it was my call on the LMIC, I'd do seven races:
1. Sebring 12hr
2. Monza 1000km
3. Spa 1000km
4. Road America 500
5. Silverstone 1000km
6. Petit Le Mans
7. Autopolis 1000km (best venue I can think of after Suzuka)

I think if we want even a chance of the Asian round being at Suzuka, it would have to be ahead of Sebring in the calendar year.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Why dont you try following the conversation a little closer, if you are going to interject! I never said it was the ILMC's fault that there are so few. But that there is, and it could very well be very detrimental (if not fatal) to the series as a whole, trying to glom another out of the two existing ones! Especially while the economic times are so strained!






L.P.

Very sorry Horndawg if I offended. The suggestion was as I wrote, if it is not how it was intended and my interpretation was wrong, so be it.

It may be as you say, fatal to ALMS in current economic climate but if that is the case then ALMS must surely be on it's last legs anyway in it's current format, otherwise, it would be able to live through this and maybe even use it to it's benefit!

I say again, I do not think manufacturers want to race completely in LMS or ALMS, unless they are selling and supporting privateer teams of course, so not sure how this can be detrimental in short term when they are not there anyway (no Porsche LMP, no Audi, no Acura, no Peugeot) and so limited if at all marketing $ from these sources. But there is interest in ILMC, as they were when Don Panoz started ALMS in 1998 at Petit Le Mans, the build it and they will come attitude.

As you say economic times are very strained in the USA, more so than Europe and certainly more so that Asia, countries such as Australia or Brazil, so if I was Mr budget controller for a international car company and I see that China and many other markets are up and generally growing fast and US is massively down and I have to balance ROI, where would I go?

My opinion is it is a good thing to keep manufacturers and not go elsewhere and allows money to be spent into the championships, Manufacturers using it with their sponsors for PR and marketing which all allows fans like us to see on TV or live some great races.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by Purist

Of course, now, the LMS has only two of those five European nations on its schedule, and I don't think Portugal, Belgium, and Hungary quite equal Germany, Italy, and Spain.

Even if Ferrari had to give away 50k tickets, it would be worth it to have an LMS race with a respectable crowd at Monza.

If it was my call on the LMIC, I'd do seven races:
1. Sebring 12hr
2. Monza 1000km
3. Spa 1000km
4. Road America 500
5. Silverstone 1000km
6. Petit Le Mans
7. Autopolis 1000km (best venue I can think of after Suzuka)

I think if we want even a chance of the Asian round being at Suzuka, it would have to be ahead of Sebring in the calendar year.

I think Autopolis is closed, and has been for years.

Suzuka or Fuji are only Japanese race tracks in reality for this size of grid.

I think 2010 will be China. $$$

[Purist]

Autopolis hosted a round of the Japanese SuperGT series last year (2009), and certainly looks to be active based on their official website. Its current owner is Kawasaki, which purchased the track in 2005.

It is an FIA Grade 2 circuit; it was Grade 1 standard 20 years when it was built. The track is the required 12m wide for the entire 2.904-mile lap, and 15m wide on the start/finish straight, which is 902m (~2,960ft) long. The lap is deceptively quick. Turns 1, 3, and 12 are probably 3rd gear (medium-speed) for an LMP. Turns 6 and 11 are probably 2nd gear (slow-speed) in an LMP. Turns 2, 4-5, 7-10, and 13-19 are probably 4th gear and up in an LMP.

The one World Championship race Autopolis hosted was the final round of the 1991 World Sportcar Championship. Teo Fabi set the pole in a Jaguar XJR-14 at a 1L27.188 (119.907mph average), and Yannick Dalmas set fastest lap in a Peugeot 905B at a 1:30.615 (115.372mph average).

Suzuka simply won't happen at the end of the year, as that sort of date puts it too close to the F1 Japanese GP for Bernie's liking. And Fuji isn't that great anymore, since the F1 remodel. Also, despite having that 1475m front straight, and a few other quick sections, Fuji is now slower than Autopolis. The LMP lap record was set in 2007 at a 1:31.065 (112.074mph average).

Yes, I know they're looking at China, but Shanghai isn't going to be looking to pay another sanction fee, and will charge an arm and a leg if the AsLMS/LMIC tries to rent the place out. Zhuhai is a possibility, but I don't know how the ACO feels about that circuit, and a number of the people here don't seem to like that track very much. So, about the only other option I see is to partner with the DTM at that Shanghai street circuit event planned for the end of October/beginning of November.

Aside from all that, it doesn't sound like China's building bubble can't last a whole lot longer. And what they're building is itself unsustainable as well. When the average (mean) earnings for an urban couple is less than $10,000 per annum, and what is being built are 1,000-1,100sq-ft, $150,000-$165,000 condo units in high-rises, and high-end office buildings, something has to give eventually. Actually, the median income would be a more accurate measure, and that amount will be even less than the mean.

Sorry, to hi-jack things like this, but I wanted to set some things straight, and point out a potentially critical flaw in what is, theoretically, the ACO's plan for Asia at present.

[NaBUru38]

There's another problem with the eventual Japanese race: winter. February or early March would be freezing, I guess, and April is to deep into the American and European seasons. Just like Canadian races, the best weather for a round in Japan is in the middle of the northern summer, which is also the middle of both seasons.

The Chinese mean income shouldn't be that important for a motorsport race near a huge city. Spectators will be middle or high class, and Shanghai surely has plenty. Fees do matter. It depends of whether the track owners want one major race per year or one per month.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Purist

Of course, now, the LMS has only two of those five European nations on its schedule, and I don't think Portugal, Belgium, and Hungary quite equal Germany, Italy, and Spain.

Even if Ferrari had to give away 50k tickets, it would be worth it to have an LMS race with a respectable crowd at Monza.

If it was my call on the LMIC, I'd do seven races:
1. Sebring 12hr
2. Monza 1000km
3. Spa 1000km
4. Road America 500
5. Silverstone 1000km
6. Petit Le Mans
7. Autopolis 1000km (best venue I can think of after Suzuka)

I think if we want even a chance of the Asian round being at Suzuka, it would have to be ahead of Sebring in the calendar year.

Mosport should sub for Road America. It is also a classic track, it allows for a Canadian race rather than a third one in the US, and it might inspire the powers that be to upgrade the bloody media connection!

Seriously though, RA has had huge issues with its promotion and Mosport is consistently an attendance leader for ALMS sprint races.

[Purist]

The income issue becomes important when, not if, the **** hits the fan, and the building frenzy grinds to a halt because capacity far outstrips any possible demand for decades to come. When that happens, the Chinese government is going to be looking for money to spend on far more critical things than motorsport. So, I wouldn't have a great deal of confidence in the real longevity of any Chinese round that might come out of the woodwork in the current climate.

Heck, even with the building craze still going, China wants out of the F1 contract early, because of how much they're losing paying the annual sanction fee, and how much they've already lost on the track construction. Shanghai can't really pay for itself because of the sanction fee, and the fact that rents for anyone else to use it are so high that next to nobody else uses the place.

Cmk, with the inter-class traffic as it is, I'm concerned enough already with what could go wrong this year at Mosport with a regular ALMS round. And before you talk about Lime Rock cramming in ~30 cars, remember that the turns at Mosport are quite a bit faster and more line sensitive. The Downhill is the fastest turn at Lime Rock (~130-140mph for LMPs). At Mosport, Turns 1, 2, 4, and 6-8 are all faster than that, and Turn 9 is close to that sort of speed as well.

It's more likely that something goes wrong at Mosport than Road America, and Mosport already has a major black mark in international sportscar racing from the Manfred Winkelhock crash in 1985, and the next time the WSC returned to Canada, this time at Montreal in 1990, there was the whole Jesus Pareja/manhole cover incident. Another reason that I chose Elkhart Lake though, was timing. Mosport is a week closer to Silverstone, and July/August in the ALMS is tightly packed enough as it is without trying to perhaps move Mosport back a week.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Purist

Cmk, with the inter-class traffic as it is, I'm concerned enough already with what could go wrong this year at Mosport with a regular ALMS round. And before you talk about Lime Rock cramming in ~30 cars, remember that the turns at Mosport are quite a bit faster and more line sensitive. The Downhill is the fastest turn at Lime Rock (~130-140mph for LMPs). At Mosport, Turns 1, 2, 4, and 6-8 are all faster than that, and Turn 9 is close to that sort of speed as well.

It's more likely that something goes wrong at Mosport than Road America, and Mosport already has a major black mark in international sportscar racing from the Manfred Winkelhock crash in 1985, and the next time the WSC returned to Canada, this time at Montreal in 1990, there was the whole Jesus Pareja/manhole cover incident. Another reason that I chose Elkhart Lake though, was timing. Mosport is a week closer to Silverstone, and July/August in the ALMS is tightly packed enough as it is without trying to perhaps move Mosport back a week.

Surely an LMIC race and its expanded field could result in separating the challenge class races during the ALMS weekend, no? If the speed differential is a big problem, it will be that way this year with no LMIC competitors and something will have to be done anyway. As it is the ALMS has repeatedly put on successful races at the track and there have been fewer big accidents than have occurred to prototypes at Road Atlanta during the PLM weekend for example. The Winkelhock crash was a terribly sad incident but bears no relevance at the stage. Furthermore with respect to timing the Mosport ALMS date has moved back and forth over a couple of weeks during the last decade so I can't see a change to fit the LMIC schedule best being a problem.

[Purist]

We will have to see how the challenge classes pan out at Mosport. However, if they do work, the ALMS is NOT going to be keen to drop those teams/cars from the 'main event" for the purposes of the LMIC. The teams in those classes definitely wouldn't appreciate getting the shaft, even if it is for just one race.

Mosport used to be earlier in the Summer, with its greater proximity to Le Mans on the calendar making it less desirable for this sort of thing. Since it has assumed its current position, however, Road America and Mid Ohio have been moved up right behind it, and they're supposed to be adding Sears Point to next year's schedule, which puts an even bigger squeeze on July/August in the ALMS, unless they put Sonoma in May. Of course, you also have to consider the chance of OKC being added to the post Le Mans glut of races here in the States.

And just for the heck of it, I crunched the numbers. With the standard sprint race format, Mosport can have up to 41 cars for an ALMS event. In the case of a more standard endurance race, this number is raised to 46. For Road America, the numbers are 57 and 64, but I'd bet the FIA would be a lot more willing to grant Road America some leeway on those maxima than is likely to be the case with Mosport.

Apart from all of that, yes, Mosport has been upgraded since 1985, but bad memories tend to have VERY long lives. Also, do you recall that the BMW factory refused to run at Mosport in 1999, because they considered that circuit too dangerous? There's no guarantee that something like that won't happen again with someone like Peugeot or Aston Martin, who have not raced at Mosport in a very long time, if ever. A withdrawal like that certainly wouldn't be a good thing, if it happened.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by Purist

Autopolis hosted a round of the Japanese SuperGT series last year (2009), and certainly looks to be active based on their official website. Its current owner is Kawasaki, which purchased the track in 2005.

Sorry Purist, I meant to write closed for international races. The facilities are old now, 20 years old, no local hotels only pensions, no local airport (nearest is 1.5 hours away) or road infrastructure was my main point.

Fuji is owned by Toyota and ACO are trying to woo Toyota so putting two and two together = ??? (most likely Okayama car park track again, aghh).

Sorry, to hi-jack things like this, but I wanted to set some things straight, and point out a potentially critical flaw in what is, theoretically, the ACO's plan for Asia at present.

Everyone will ride the ASIA train until it stops, just as everyone did with the USA train until 2007 whether it is sustainable or not, human nature sadly.

Like your other tracks though.

[The Real DMN]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

i grab all portions of "the stick" and one can read comments however they feel in an open forum; that's what makes it great.

Just trying to head of any ALMS is better than LMS deabte before it gets started. Its been done to death. Nothing more than that.

I'd like to see the ALMS expand a little, there are some great tracks in South American and mexico, but is the money there?

[Purist]

Lola T70, except for paving more of the paddock, how old are the facilities at Mosport? Most North American road courses don't have enough garages to handle a full ALMS field, if they have garages at all; by international terms, most of them are considered rather out of the way as well. F1 chose Phoenix in 1989 partially because they thought Laguna Seca had the same problems you just listed for Autopolis.

A 4-6 hour train ride to Autopolis doesn't sound so bad, especially when the nearest ALMS race (Road America) is more than twice that in drive time.

From some information I picked up a couple nights ago, it sounds like things will go south with Chinese real-estate in as little as 12-18 months. So, that's what, one or two races the ACO MIGHT get pulled off before things sour?

One of the tricky things is that China doesn't look at economic growth from a methods-first approach, but from the notion that, "I have to do whatever is necessary to hit my growth quota for the year." Right now, that "quota" seems to be roughly 9%. That sort of approach definitely opens the door to some risky "capitalist" practices.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by Purist

Lola T70, except for paving more of the paddock, how old are the facilities at Mosport? Most North American road courses don't have enough garages to handle a full ALMS field, if they have garages at all; by international terms, most of them are considered rather out of the way as well. F1 chose Phoenix in 1989 partially because they thought Laguna Seca had the same problems you just listed for Autopolis.

A 4-6 hour train ride to Autopolis doesn't sound so bad, especially when the nearest ALMS race (Road America) is more than twice that in drive time.

From some information I picked up a couple nights ago, it sounds like things will go south with Chinese real-estate in as little as 12-18 months. So, that's what, one or two races the ACO MIGHT get pulled off before things sour?

One of the tricky things is that China doesn't look at economic growth from a methods-first approach, but from the notion that, "I have to do whatever is necessary to hit my growth quota for the year." Right now, that "quota" seems to be roughly 9%. That sort of approach definitely opens the door to some risky "capitalist" practices.

Autopolis is on an island, the south island of Japan, and so it requires an internal flight from Tokyo or Nagoya to Kumamoto and then when you get there are no trains, it is a car journey to the middle of nowhere. Facilities are probably the same as Mosport, which will never have an ILMC race either I would say.

I will bow to your knowledge on the future of China but not sure the ACO will as car manufacturers are all having increased sales in that region.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Purist

Road America and Mid Ohio have been moved up right behind [Mosport], and they're supposed to be adding Sears Point to next year's schedule, which puts an even bigger squeeze on July/August in the ALMS, unless they put Sonoma in May. Of course, you also have to consider the chance of OKC being added to the post Le Mans glut of races here in the States.

Let me add that Baltimore bosses want the ALMS to join the IndyCar party the August week between Mid-Ohio and Road America / Sears Point. As I said somewhere else, Sears Point could be moved to July coupled with Edmonton (and Miller if it switches back dates with Lime Rock).

[chernaudi]

According to Endurance Info, Peugeot has stated an intent to do the LMIC this year.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

According to Endurance Info, Peugeot has stated an intent to do the LMIC this year.

Great news!

Link (in English on Endurance-Info.com)

Those post Le Mans blues will be offset by the mouthwatering prospect of the Peugeot/Audi battle being resumed at Silverstone 3 months later. Can't wait!

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Great news!

Link (in English on Endurance-Info.com)

Those post Le Mans blues will be offset by the mouthwatering prospect of the Peugeot/Audi battle being resumed at Silverstone 3 months later. Can't wait!

Fantastic! This is what LMIC is for and it should be a real battle between the heavyweights.

No if we can just bring in a couple more manufacturers........

[joeb]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

According to Endurance Info, Peugeot has stated an intent to do the LMIC this year.

That is great news! Looking forward to another intense Petit LeMans

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Great news!

What? Anyone mentioned the Dacia Sandero?

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

What? Anyone mentioned the Dacia Sandero?

My name may be James, but my second name is not May!

Mind you, since we're already off topic, a shoot out around the Top Gear test track between the R15+ and 908 with Nishy and Quick Nic at the wheel might be fun........and good publicity!

[Tim the Grey]

McStig and Msr. Le Stigs French Cousin???

Pug news on Pug website. Silverstone, Petit LM, China.

[Victor_RO]

Isn't Le Stig's French Cousin actually messr. Sarrazin?

[The Badger]

Can someone please remind me what rounds constitute the LMIC ?

[Marcel ten Caat]

Petit Le Mans
Silverstone
China (track tba)