2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

For Audi Petit is also just a two driver race as well.

Occasionally they used 3 drivers in the past: Capello/McNish/Pirro in 2008 and Biela/Pirro/Werner in 2006. However, I think you are right that Audi will stick to the 4 drivers.

Bernard and Dumas have a regular job as Porsche factory driver and Lotterer and Treluyer have their drives in Japan. Fassler and Luhr are pretty much unemployed for the rest of the year, except for some races in the R8 GT3. Will Luhr get another shot at a R15 seat this year?

[Audi Racer]

The Race in Zhuhai China will be sstunning. As you can see Peugeot has sent a subtle message to Audi that they will win the last battle of this sportscar era before the new regulations. I don't doubt it.
The peugeot linup is
Car1-Simon Pagenaud---------Sebastian Bourdais
Car 2- Franck Montagny-----------Stephane Sarrazin
Without a doubt the four fastest drivers that Peugeot has ever had. It is also the last race for the Peugeot 908. We will see the fastest peugeot 908 ever. Also look at that. The peugeot 908 is really going out with a bang. You might just say that Peugeot is having a going away party. The french peugeot 908 being driven by all french drivers in the last race for the 908. I think peugeot will go all out to embarrass audi after lemans. And theirs nothing audi can do about it. olivier Quesnel will say one thing to his drivers that weekend "Go!"

[Lola T70]

you mean like Le Mans?

Not sure I would make those predictions just yet.

[WMUCarGuy]

With rumors of the hybrid 911 coming over for Petit, I wonder if Bernhard and Dumas may be assigned that ride.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

The peugeot 908 is really going out with a bang.........
I think peugeot will go all out to embarrass audi after lemans. And theirs nothing audi can do about it. olivier Quesnel will say one thing to his drivers that weekend "Go!"

I don't think that Audi could give a rats arse about any potential embarrassment that Peugeot could possibly dish out. Audi have already won the big one, and in an extremely convincing way. Victories in any other events this year in LMS/LMIC will only be icing on the cake.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

I don't think that Audi could give a rats arse about any potential embarrassment that Peugeot could possibly dish out. Audi have already won the big one, and in an extremely convincing way. Victories in any other events this year in LMS/LMIC will only be icing on the cake.

Winning the very first ILMC is not just "icing on the cake".
Of Course it's not Le Mans, but it's something!, otherwise Audi and especially Peugeot wouldn't race it! (as there is no gain, development wise, in racing the 908, which takes resources which could be used on 90X)

But Peugeot dominating Audi!?, i don't think so!
The R15+ is better at "normal" tracks, just see SPA. Also, Peugeot do NOT want to have a similar failure again (the Con Rods), so they will either go with slightly de-tuned engines, or not push as hard as they have been able to do earlier.

The ILMC will be very interesting to follow, as it will be a close battle between Audi and Peugeot. I just hope that they can manage to do a quick deal so some one will broadcast all the races!

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by CTD

Winning the very first ILMC is not just "icing on the cake".
Of Course it's not Le Mans, but it's something!, otherwise Audi and especially Peugeot wouldn't race it! (as there is no gain, development wise, in racing the 908, which takes resources which could be used on 90X)

But Peugeot dominating Audi!?, i don't think so!
The R15+ is better at "normal" tracks, just see SPA. Also, Peugeot do NOT want to have a similar failure again (the Con Rods), so they will either go with slightly de-tuned engines, or not push as hard as they have been able to do earlier.

The ILMC will be very interesting to follow, as it will be a close battle between Audi and Peugeot. I just hope that they can manage to do a quick deal so some one will broadcast all the races!

Do you really think that anyone is going to remember who wins the Intercontinental Cup this year, and I am talking about the unwashed masses, not just us. Look, I hope that the ILMC gets some legs over the next few years and grows into a significant series, but Audis LM24 whitewash this year is going to be long remembered over anything else they achieve this year.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Do you really think that anyone is going to remember who wins the Intercontinental Cup this year, and I am talking about the unwashed masses, not just us. Look, I hope that the ILMC gets some legs over the next few years and grows into a significant series, but Audis LM24 whitewash this year is going to be long remembered over anything else they achieve this year.

Does that even make sense? Do you really think that Audi Sport Team Joest and Peugeot Total Sport would run in the intercontinental cup if no one cared about it. You think that lemans is the only thing that matters. Well sorry to break it to you. Its not. Do you have any idea of how much money Audi and Peugeot spend to be at the cup races. Do you think if nobody cared they would care. Do you think if nobody cared that Peugeot would send their four fastest drivers. Don't sound too smart do you.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

I don't think that Audi could give a rats arse about any potential embarrassment that Peugeot could possibly dish out. Audi have already won the big one, and in an extremely convincing way. Victories in any other events this year in LMS/LMIC will only be icing on the cake.

Peugeot and Audi both sell cars in china and britain. A loss is a loss. Im know that Audi don;t spend the money they spend to come second. I guess you have not heard about Dr. Ullrich and his job. And no it was not a convincing victory. This is where you read between the lines. not just look at the end result. There is no doubt in my mind that teh peugeot is faster than the Audi. A lemans 123 does not change that. im more excited to see a peugeot at a race track than an audi because i wanna see how fast the peugeot will go. most people want to see what peugeot comeout with next compared to audi.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Peugeot and Audi both sell cars in china and britain. A loss is a loss. Im know that Audi don;t spend the money they spend to come second. I guess you have not heard about Dr. Ullrich and his job. And no it was not a convincing victory. This is where you read between the lines. not just look at the end result. There is no doubt in my mind that teh peugeot is faster than the Audi. A lemans 123 does not change that. im more excited to see a peugeot at a race track than an audi because i wanna see how fast the peugeot will go. most people want to see what peugeot comeout with next compared to audi.

L.P.

[chernaudi]

Problem is, outside of Le Mans, Audi probably has the better car-they proved it in '09 at Sebring and PLM. The modified R15 dominated at Paul Ricard, even before Oreca's air jack problems, as the Audi had built up a 10 second lead, and from there the Pug struggled to match the Audi on a consistant basis.

And at Spa, Audi had little difficulty in the dry keeping up with the 908s, and if they ran a high downforce setup, they'd probably would've been faster. Peugeot, with slowed deveopment and probably having to re-think their engine package for the LMIC races(though those are shorter than Le Mans) are gonna have their hands full with Audi, since they can't just worry about Allan and Dindo alone-Le Mans proved that Audi can put any of their LM drivers into the second LMIC car and they'd have an equal chance as McNish and Capello.

[Mal]

Audi and Peugeot hope that the ILMC will become something important which is why they have been pushing for its inception.

However right now ask either team or the board from either manufacturer which they would rather win and which matters most and I guarantee that they will all 100% say Le Mans.

Hopefully ILMC will become something in the future but to imply it carries the same weight now is frankly ludicrous - the clue is in the name!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Peugeot, with slowed deveopment and probably having to re-think their engine package for the LMIC races(though those are shorter than Le Mans) are gonna have their hands full with Audi.

Peugeot only has to replace the conrods as a precaution after every race and they are fine. A 6/10 hours vs 24 hours makes a huge difference.

I don't share your optimism that Audi will easily be faster than Peugeot. The Peugeot has a serious engine advantage (if the conrods stay in one piece), so therefor they can run with more downforce than Audi. In the Porsche curves (sector 3) Peugeot was more than 1 sec faster than Audi.

Peugeot will go flat out to win the cup and prove that they have the speed and reliability to beat Audi.

[Juntos]

Good onya Peugeot! Who is in?

[MihokS5]

I'm with chernaudi here and think that Audi has the slightly better car. If anything, the cars are more equally matched now than ever, but I give the advantage as a whole(team,etc) to Audi

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Peugeot only has to replace the conrods as a precaution after every race and they are fine. A 6/10 hours vs 24 hours makes a huge difference.

I don't share your optimism that Audi will easily be faster than Peugeot. The Peugeot has a serious engine advantage (if the conrods stay in one piece), so therefor they can run with more downforce than Audi. In the Porsche curves (sector 3) Peugeot was more than 1 sec faster than Audi.

Peugeot will go flat out to win the cup and prove that they have the speed and reliability to beat Audi.

Remember, Audi held a little in reserve at Le Mans, and knew that if they pushed Peugeot and they had problems, that the Pug guys would drop the hammer and make it a do or die run, which is exactly what happened.

Also, the revised R15, by your own admission, was faster than the Oreca 908(which was in the same spec the factory cars would've been) at Paul Ricard and were just as fast in the race at Spa in spite of now running the optimal areo package.

Chassis wise, the R15 is better for the ALMS/LMS type tracks, where the ability to change direction rapidly, weight distribution and cornering speed are just as if not more important than straightline speed, which the Audis lacked at LM even with the revised bodyword to equal the Pugs' downforce in the Porsche curves.

Also, a 1-2 second gap at Le Mans is reduced to almost nothing at a shorter track, and the R15 dynamically was built for the shorter tracks. You can't exactly build a Le Mans special out of what has become an engored, diesel engined Porsche RS Spyder or Acura ARX-01(chassis dynamics speaking), both of which needed special bodywork to work at LM.

Audi probably does have the better car for the LMIC races, as the Pug's power advantage means less at shorter racetracks where handling and agility becomes of equal or more importance.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Remember, Audi held a little in reserve at Le Mans, and knew that if they pushed Peugeot and they had problems, that the Pug guys would drop the hammer and make it a do or die run, which is exactly what happened.

Audi was driving as fast as they could without taking no many risks. There was not real reserve.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, the revised R15, by your own admission, was faster than the Oreca 908(which was in the same spec the factory cars would've been) at Paul Ricard and were just as fast in the race at Spa in spite of now running the optimal areo package.

First race with the car for Oreca and less powerful engine spec.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Chassis wise, the R15 is better for the ALMS/LMS type tracks, where the ability to change direction rapidly, weight distribution and cornering speed are just as if not more important than straightline speed, which the Audis lacked at LM even with the revised bodyword to equal the Pugs' downforce in the Porsche curves.

Perfect weight distribution is important for short start/stop circuits. Silverstone and Road Atlanta are high speed tracks with a lot of flowing sections. In the past Peugeot was really good in this type of track because of its good mechanical grip and better aero.

Peugeot is not bad on slower tracks either. Remember 1000 km of Catalunya 2008 where the 908 dominated the old R10: http://www.lemans-series.com/en/s55_...=6&id_course=3

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Perfect weight distribution is important for short start/stop circuits. Silverstone and Road Atlanta are high speed tracks with a lot of flowing sections. In the past Peugeot was really good in this type of track because of its good mechanical grip and better aero.

Nice to see that Marshall Pruett makes a similiar observation in http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...iple-stint-78/

• The Le Mans-winning Audi R15 plus still suffers from knife-edge aero and a lack of front mechanical grip – two things that plagued the R15 and won’t be solved in time for Petit Le Mans, but these issues are major part of design solutions for the Audi R18.
• Even after four years of head-to-head competition, Peugeot’s amazing mechanical grip – especially at the front of their 908 chassis – still has Audi mystified.

The second point might confirm that Peugeot has an inerter hidden in the nose of the 908.

[chernaudi]

Marshall's comments don't go along with what Audi engineers said during Speed's broadcast and what I saw during the race--which is that the R15 lacks rear mechanical grip. But I guess that this is what happens when you end up with half a new car after a less than successful 2009 design.

But then again, let's look at the Acura ARX-02. That car had no reports of a lack of grip anywhere, and it uses a suspension system very similar to both versions of the Audi R15(pushrods, torsion bar springs, and a zero-keel layout). I don't know, but if Audi has front grip problems, do as Acura did, and put a 150-200lb piece of tungsten in the nose of the car!

Or maybe Audi should ditch the 13.5 wheels and use 14 inch rims like Aston Martin does.

Maybe this is a sign that Audi screwed up trying to design a downforce car for the ALMS and going too far. Did the Acura ARX-02(which the 2010 R15's areo seems to be largely based on and shares the zero-keel suspension layout with the R15) have any grip problems related to the areo or suspension?

Or could this be that the Pug being a lead sled weight wise has actually helped them-the Panoz LMP was severely overweight compared to the R8, and it had just as good mechanical grip, though being front engined helped that.

It's strange that the Audi R10 lacked front grip in certian conditons because of it's rearward weight bias and narrow front wheels and that Audi gave the R15 a near 50/50 front/rear weight distribution and wider wheels and is still having issues undercertian condtions.

However, I've heard that a understeery car works better in faster corners, but that's F1, not sportscars. Could that help Audi as far as the "slow in, fast out" theory or road racing cornering techniques.

And for Audi to still not have figured out the R15, they haven't been bad off compared to the 908 outside of Le Mans, but that's easy to do when the 908's near the very end of it's peformance envelope and at tracks where it's power advantage isn't as useful.

[gwyllion]

I don't you can draw any conclusion from the Acura. One of their problems was that the Michelin rear tyres were not adapted to be used on the front.

[chernaudi]

The point still remains--does zero-keel work on an LMP car? It's a F1 derived idea like the J-damper, and we know how much that Peugeot even now to an extent struggles with it(wet or damp tracks).

Could the R15's front or rear grip be down to the Zero-keel concept?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Could the R15's front or rear grip be down to the Zero-keel concept?

I am not really familiar with the zero-keel concept. Apparently it has something to do with the pickup points of the suspension. Can you point out why you believe the R15 front suspension is so fundamentally different from the 908?


The only difference that I can see is that the lower A-arm of the 908 is a bit longer.

[chernaudi]

The R15 illustrates what zero-keel is by how the lower A-arms/wishbones are mounted to the tub compared to the 908's. The Acura ARX-02 has a similar layout: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/AcuraARX-02-1a.html

That link also has a link that's an explanation of zero-keel.

I asked Mulsanne Mike about that, and he says that like on F1 cars, the advantages/disadvantages of zero-keel are both related to packaging. The big advantage is aero-the front and rear diffusers work more effiecently with the lower wishbones out of the way.

The big negative is that if there's something amiss in the set up, it'll likely be made worse on a zero-keel since camber recovery is slightly inferior compared to a conventional keel set up.

So is the zero-keel's advantages bunk, or is the R15 just set-up sensitive, since it seemed to have no difficulty at Paul Ricard or Spa of keeping up with, or even at times our running the 908s? Or has the R15 just been a better short track/ALMS type track car all along?

[gwyllion]

I found this figure describing the difference between single keel and zero keel in case of the Toyota F1 car of 2005:

The lower A-arm is mounted on the side of the nose and the suspension arms are under a steep angle upwards.

That is not the case with the R15, which has its lower pickup points underneath the nose and its A-arm almost horizontal. So I would not call it "zero keel".

[chernaudi]

Mulsanne Mike says it's zero keel, Acura/HPD said it was zero keel, so that's what I'm going by, as well as the fact that the R15's lower wishbones attach to the lower sides of the tub through what look to be flexures like on the Acura, and there is a noticable upward angle from the hub assembly to the tub pickup points, like on zero-keel F1 cars.

The only way for the R15's monocoque to have that extreme raised nose it has is with the zero keel.

Also, the Toyota TF105 series isn't a very good example, since it still had a keel(the protorusion on the lower nose), it just wan't being used, while the R15, ARX-02, and most post-2006 F1 cars didn't even have a front keel.

The reason for the R15 and the ARX-02 having the zero keel is to improve air flow from the front diffuser and down the sides of the cars-the R15 photo even shows a couple of small barge boards mounted under and behind the front brake ducts/shrouds. Also, at the rear, the zero keel improves rear diffuser air flow.

However, as I said, it can come at a price as far as camber recovery and asscioated issues if set up improperly.

Maybe the tech forum is where the zero keel question is best answered, but since it involves Audi vs Peugeot and the ILMC, I'm asking if zero keel is a bust for Audi?