2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[cmk]

The point Fogelhund is making, and several of us have made repeatedly, is that we aren't concerning ourselves with 'betrayal' or North American provincialism. These comments concern the business sense of decisions being made which affect the global Le Mans racing brand. As far as we can tell (and Fogelhund has done an excellent job outlining why), these decisions are nonsensical in many respects and smack of foolish impulsiveness at times.

Given the willingness with which many posters usually criticize the ACO I am puzzled why so many vigorously defend the LMIC when it seems that only one of the 4 manufacturers racing in P1 last year will contest it. If the plan had been made with appropriate dialogue with the participants (and thus potential stakeholders), this should not be the case.

[WMUCarGuy]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

Are we forgetting about Toyota and their 2011 plans that look to be ongoing?

A Intercontinental Cup is right up their street.

Have we heard any actual info regarding this potential project? There's been a lot of speculation that seems to make sense, but I don't think there's been any news from Toyota's end that it might happen.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by cmk

Given the willingness with which many posters usually criticize the ACO I am puzzled why so many vigorously defend the LMIC when it seems that only one of the 4 manufacturers racing in P1 last year will contest it. If the plan had been made with appropriate dialogue with the participants (and thus potential stakeholders), this should not be the case.

As I stated, the ball is rolling, the idea may not be perfect, and their may be some problems that may need sorting out. The whole thing may collapse. We will all find out in due course, but at least it is now set to start. Given that the major participants should have some input, I still think that the ACO are right in pushing forward the scheme sooner, rather than later, as all the prospective stakeholders would have their own barrows to push, and as such, the whole series could have been delayed in getting under way. If it is a success, I don't think it will be too long before the likes of Peugeot will be lining up.

[JAG]

The 2010 LMIC is a placeholder, it's creation has not pulled entries from the LMS or ALMS, the ACO are making official what these entrants have been doing for the last few years.

The ALMS needs to find a business plan that works without Audi, as it is Audi prefare the international series, while privateers such as Dyson and Corsa are scalling back their programs.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

The 2010 LMIC is a placeholder, it's creation has not pulled entries from the LMS or ALMS, the ACO are making official what these entrants have been doing for the last few years.

The ALMS needs to find a business plan that works without Audi, as it is Audi prefare the international series, while privateers such as Dyson and Corsa are scalling back their programs.

Without manufacturer money, there is no business plan for the ALMS. There is no LMIC visiting North America either. I am most certainly not against this idea in principle, it just is poorly timed on a number of levels, including ensuring the viability of your regional partners is strong.

You introduce this, announcing the manufacturers entered, to create media interest at the beginning. If there isn't that level of support, it should have waited until there was.

A good idea, poorly timed on almost every level. For 2010, it is a meaningless mini-series, nothing more.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

the ACO have at least got the ball rolling with the Intercontinental Cup [...] the ACO are right in pushing forward the scheme sooner, rather than later, as all the prospective stakeholders would have their own barrows to push, and as such, the whole series could have been delayed in getting under way.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by JAG

the ACO are making official what these entrants have been doing for the last few years.

And that's very attractive for works teams, since carmakers can use their success in advertising. "We won the World Le Mans Series" sounds much more glorious than "we won some Sebring and Silverstone endurance races".

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

the business side of this sport is lost on some

Manufacturers can see spending on sports programmes as advertising investment. But they demand results in return - that's why BMW and Toyota dropped F1 from their budget, and Ferrari and Mercedes don't.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

If you are going to create a quasi-world championship, get your ducks in a row, and ensure that you are going have world interest in it [...] this should have waited for 2011, when a grand introduction could have been made [...] That it seems either the ACO didn't discuss this with Peugeot, or decided to go ahead anyway is a major fail.

So, all this talk earlier about Manufacturer dollars increasing the media awareness... do you really think Audi will foot that bill alone for that? It isn't happening.

A good idea, poorly timed on almost every level. For 2010, it is a meaningless mini-series, nothing more.

I believe that the ACO had to do this to keep current entries interested in prototype racing. They couldn't wait until everyone agreeded to take action and prevent retirements.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

There is no LMIC visiting North America either

Wtf? Sebring and PLM are as sure for 2011 as it could possibly be.

Originally Posted by JAG

The ALMS needs to find a business plan that works without Audi, as it is Audi prefare the international series, while privateers such as Dyson and Corsa are scalling back their programs.

Exactly. The IMSA could do nothing about Audi leaving the ALMS and sticking to worldclass races. Strong privateers are key to the three continental series.

Originally Posted by JAG

How can ACO sportscar racing be dictated by a series that has recently lost the support of Audi, Porsche and Acura

Some say that the ALMS' problems come because of the relationship with the ACO (e.g. prototype class changes for 2009). I can't tell, I've never seen any race.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

As I stated, the ball is rolling, the idea may not be perfect, and their may be some problems that may need sorting out. The whole thing may collapse. We will all find out in due course, but at least it is now set to start. Given that the major participants should have some input, I still think that the ACO are right in pushing forward the scheme sooner, rather than later, as all the prospective stakeholders would have their own barrows to push, and as such, the whole series could have been delayed in getting under way. If it is a success, I don't think it will be too long before the likes of Peugeot will be lining up.

My point was similar to what Fogelhund just stated: if the ALMS goes under then the LMIC does too, in almost any plausible scenario you can come up with. Therefore, in my opinion, the ACO's first goals should have been to shore up the ALMS, LMS and AsLMS as much as possible and then, in concert with manufacturers, roll out an LMIC that was both internally sustainable and supported rather than detracted from the component series it is 'borrowing' events from.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Wtf? Sebring and PLM are as sure for 2011 as it could possibly be.

Are they? There are those in the sport who wonder if 2010 will be completed, let alone 2011. The sale of Sebring the track has been explored, what if ISC purchased it? Would you believe that 2011 was so sure? What if sufficient sponsorship money is not found for the ALMS to continue in 2011, and it was sold off to Grand Am. Then what?

The ALMS cannot survive on privateer money under it's current structure. Like I stated previously, the business side of this sport is lost on many.

For those who are simply fans, this is great.. I can see that.

For those who understand the business side, and not just the ALMS financial side, this is an ill-timed concept.


Let me repeat.

The ALMS cannot survive on privateer money under it's current structure. Like I stated previously, the business side of this sport is lost on many.

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The ALMS cannot survive on privateer money under it's current structure.

In that case, the current structure must be changed. Series rely on privateers, manufacturers will just come and go. BTCC, Champ Car, Indycar and Formula 1 all found this out the hard way. The ALMS is currently doing so too.

With regards to the LMIC, I think it's a great idea, gives the privateers a chance for wins in their individual series, gives the manufacturers a series of races to attend and gives the privateers a chance to fight the factory entries at overlapping events. It also adds prestige to the events in the LMIC.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Without manufacturer money, there is no business plan for the ALMS. There is no LMIC visiting North America either. I am most certainly not against this idea in principle, it just is poorly timed on a number of levels, including ensuring the viability of your regional partners is strong.

You introduce this, announcing the manufacturers entered, to create media interest at the beginning. If there isn't that level of support, it should have waited until there was.

A good idea, poorly timed on almost every level. For 2010, it is a meaningless mini-series, nothing more.

You and I are coming at this from different perspectives, your priority are the regional series, specifically the ALMS.

I on the other hand would happily give up the LMS for a six or more round World Series.

I can only visit a race or two at most, most of my sportscar entertainment comes via the TV and internet.

For this very reason it was all to easy to tune out of much of last seasons LMS and ALMS events due to uninspiring fields and little competition.

I don't know what the answer is for the ALMS, each day I tune into Mariantic to see new LMS prototype teams cropping up from nowhere, the last similar ALMS news was Corsa, yet even they are in and out.

People are paid big money to make the ALMS viable, somethings wrong if they can't big something around Sebring, PLM, Mosport and Laguna Seca.

If I was running the ALMS I'd restructure the series to six rounds and ask the ACO to include at least half in the LMIC.

Sebring
Spa
Spain/Portugal
Silverstone
Mosport/Laguna Seca
PLM
Suzuka
China

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

You and I are coming at this from different perspectives, your priority are the regional series, specifically the ALMS.

I on the other hand would happily give up the LMS for a six or more round World Series.

I can only visit a race or two at most, most of my sportscar entertainment comes via the TV and internet.

For this very reason it was all to easy to tune out of much of last seasons LMS and ALMS events due to uninspiring fields and little competition.

I don't know what the answer is for the ALMS, each day I tune into Mariantic to see new LMS prototype teams cropping up from nowhere, the last similar ALMS news was Corsa, yet even they are in and out.

People are paid big money to make the ALMS viable, somethings wrong if they can't big something around Sebring, PLM, Mosport and Laguna Seca.

If I was running the ALMS I'd restructure the series to six rounds and ask the ACO to include at least half in the LMIC.

Sebring
Spa
Spain/Portugal
Silverstone
Mosport/Laguna Seca
PLM
Suzuka
China

The problem is that the LMIC is for LMP1 protos only. Without strong regional series, there are no LMP2's or GT's to fill the field. There aren't, nor would there be enough LMP1's to make a race, and even if the "lower" classes were added, they wouldn't be subscribed to in much of a manner. You do this, you end up with drastically reduced Le Mans fields, which cooks the Golden Goose. I would imagine even the ACO isn't so stupid to try such a thing. Again, while full of interesting imaginings, it ignores the basic business realities.

[Speed-King]

The problem is that the LMIC is for LMP1 protos only. Without strong regional series, there are no LMP2's or GT's to fill the field.

I said it before: the supporting cast doesn't necessarily have to run to ACO rules... and for a big televised event like Sebring or PLM, it shouldn't be all that hard to drum up a nice grid of Trans-Am, SCCA and Grand Am-cars. When Grand Am applied that philosophy for the 24 hours at Daytona in 2001 and 02 they had 80 car fields.
And that use of "local support" was also pretty much the M.O. of the old World Sportscar Championship before the Group C-era.

There aren't, nor would there be enough LMP1's to make a race,

Maybe not in 2010, but once this is in full swing, I think it'll work:
2x Audi
2x Peugeot
2x Kolles
2x Aston Martin
perhaps Porsche and a few privateers here and there, so a field of 10 LMP1s sounds pretty realisitic to me.

You do this, you end up with drastically reduced Le Mans fields, which cooks the Golden Goose. I would imagine even the ACO isn't so stupid to try such a thing.

There's no shortage of teams wanting to race at LM, and I think the ACO could fill their grid just nicely with European teams only if they had to.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The problem is that the LMIC is for LMP1 protos only.

The only way it makes sense. ACO wants an lower LMP class (P2) for the small and with less budget teams, and now with an pro-am drivers line-up, it would be suicide to think that, for an example only, more than half 2009 LMP2 LMS teams (let's say 10 P2) would join the new series. They wont...

It's a fact that a budget to runing a Lola, a Pescarolo or a Zytek on P1 or P2 are the same on LMS, but only in the current 5 European rounds (everybody remembers Brazil in 2007), or even with more rounds but always in Europe. If want to go out, you need more money and just the big guys can do it even with the actual financial crisis.

Frankly, this is no different of what it was many years ago... and it worked out. There was X rounds for the World Championship, and teams raced in the ones they liked...

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Without strong regional series, there are no LMP2's or GT's to fill the field. There aren't, nor would there be enough LMP1's to make a race, and even if the "lower" classes were added, they wouldn't be subscribed to in much of a manner.

I agree that it is necessary to have strong regional series, but it can't happen with P2 (and GT) cars only? There are plenty of LMP2 entries in Europe, as for GT2. Just those two classes represents almost more (in some cases they more) than all ALMS together...

And, don't forget, today's P2 are tomorrow's P1. If costs maintain, small and private team can go P1 only in Europe or North-America, and, why not, fighting for an European and North AMerican Championship.

In the 70's, there was a very good and competitive European Sport 2L Championship, prototypes only... ok, it didn't last long, but it worked well.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

You do this, you end up with drastically reduced Le Mans fields, which cooks the Golden Goose. I would imagine even the ACO isn't so stupid to try such a thing. Again, while full of interesting imaginings, it ignores the basic business realities.

Drastically reduced Le Mans fields? There was been more applies to Le Mans than all the ALMS and LMS joined together... 80+ in 2009. The large majority, not ALMS team....

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

Drastically reduced Le Mans fields? There was been more applies to Le Mans than all the ALMS and LMS joined together... 80+ in 2009. The large majority, not ALMS team....

I was responding specifically to Jag's statement about the LMS and ALMS being dropped completely, in favour of LMIC.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

today's P2 are tomorrow's P1

But only in terms of performance. P1s will soon have costly technologies like hybrid powertrains.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I was responding specifically to Jag's statement about the LMS and ALMS being dropped completely, in favour of LMIC.

Sorry... i didn't understand!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

But only in terms of performance. P1s will soon have costly technologies like hybrid powertrains.

Chassis also, with little tweak. ASM Team guys will go P1 in 2011with the actual Ginetta-Zytek 09S with the 3.4L V8, or a new motor.
Anyway... what was trying to say is that in 2010, there will be a lot of teams on P1 classe.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I said it before: the supporting cast doesn't necessarily have to run to ACO rules... and for a big televised event like Sebring or PLM, it shouldn't be all that hard to drum up a nice grid of Trans-Am, SCCA and Grand Am-cars.

if wanted to see those cars, i'd go to an SCCA event and pay $20 to get in. i don't want to see those cars on the track with "World Class" (can we still say that?) Sportscars. i see what you are getting at, but there'd have to be something better...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I said it before: the supporting cast doesn't necessarily have to run to ACO rules... and for a big televised event like Sebring or PLM, it shouldn't be all that hard to drum up a nice grid of Trans-Am, SCCA and Grand Am-cars.

There are those who might agree with you, including me to some degree. Unfortunately the ACO won't stand for this currently.

[JAG]

Retaining Sebring and PLM as ACO races is the priority.

If the ALMS continues, great, if it doesn't a solution needs to be found.

So long as you have a credible P1 field, which LMIC status would guarantee, you'd be able to put together another 15-20 ACO reg P2, GT1 and GT2 cars.

In addition you have LMC cars, which could be expanded to include LMP3 type cars, and GT3 machines.

I'm not saying putting together such a field would be easy, but if US sportscar fans only had these two ACO events on home turf, I feel their importance and status would increase.

[Speed-King]

So long as you have a credible P1 field, which LMIC status would guarantee, you'd be able to put together another 15-20 ACO reg P2, GT1 and GT2 cars.

I'm not saying putting together such a field would be easy, but if US sportscar fans only had these two ACO events on home turf, I feel their importance and status would increase.

Really? There aren't a great many European teams coming to the states for these races right now, and which American teams would be willing and able to buy a ACO-type racecar for just two outings a year?

[Purist]

JAG, status would NOT increase for those events if there were only a few of them; they would fall off the radar altogether, as sportscar racing would garner even less attention, relatively speaking, over here than they do now with the ALMS as it is.

Remember, JAG, most Americans are relative idiots; for them, bigger is better, except perhaps in terms of race lengths, since their attention spans aren't necessarily so great. That does mean, however, that more cars on the grids and more total races are by default considered a good thing by a lot of people over here. Remember, ALMS (and that includes those sparse couple of marquee events) have to compete on some level with a 36-race NASCAR Sprint Cup schedule (that's 36 rounds over 36 weekends) with 43 cars each weekend, and with a dozen or so of the races being at least 500 miles. Though less of an issue, there is also the 17-race Indy Car season, with the Indy 500 that by itself still garners far more attention than Sebring or PLM in the grand scheme of things here in the States.

Point is, JAG, fewer but longer races may work in Europe, but the ALMS MUST run more total races than the LMS does now, or it will simply disappear because it can't garner any season-long attention. I just don't see Sebring and PLM being able to sustain themselves as mere standalone events.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Purist

most Americans are relative idiots; for them, bigger is better, except perhaps in terms of race lengths, since their attention spans aren't necessarily so great.

Yet only they have a 36-race >400mi schedule (Nascar Cup). It's very strange, isn't it? Of course, it may be so because stock car racing has more action than true endurance racing.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

Retaining Sebring and PLM as ACO races is the priority.

If the ALMS continues, great, if it doesn't a solution needs to be found.

So long as you have a credible P1 field, which LMIC status would guarantee, you'd be able to put together another 15-20 ACO reg P2, GT1 and GT2 cars.

In addition you have LMC cars, which could be expanded to include LMP3 type cars, and GT3 machines.

I'm not saying putting together such a field would be easy, but if US sportscar fans only had these two ACO events on home turf, I feel their importance and status would increase.

You would NEVER get those fields, if the ALMS folded, and there were no ACO type races here. Soon there would be no LMC, P2, GT1 or GT2 cars. None.

If the ALMS folded, the track ownership would likely change. Possibly in a package to whomever decided to continue races. That would either be NASCAR/Grand Am or a new group. Things tend to go in cycles, I'd bet a new group would reject the stringent relationship with the ACO that exists currently.

As others mentioned, out of sight, out of mind, sportscar racing of this type would become invisible.

[fieldodreams79]

...and having only PLM and the 12 hours would virtually eliminate half of the country from attending. not good PR, but may be 2 good "bonus" race for the Euro fans of the sport.