2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[Purist]

Well, Nationwide and Trucks have long schedules as well (35 and 25 races respectively), though each race isn't as long as for the Cup guys.

The reason other series here don't do longer races, above anything else, is that they can't get the TV time for full broadcasts of longer races.

The issue of race distance also gets amplified with other series, because road courses are so much slower in average speed than 1.5-mile and over ovals. The two clearly shortest Cup races, in terms of mileage, are the two road course races (Sears Point and Watkins Glen). They do 110 laps of the short, 1.949-mile course at Sonoma (214.39 miles total), and 90 laps of the short, 2.45-mile course at Watkins Glen (220.5 miles total). Even the Martinsville races are longer, as they do 500 laps around that 0.526-mile oval (263 miles total).

P.S. And if NASCAR was real stock cars, where some technical freedoms and advancements were actually allowed, I bet the attrition rate from mechanical issues would make the racing just a haphazard as LM type endurance racing. Only trouble is, with all the fender banging in NASCAR, even less of the field would be around at the finish.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Purist

Remember, JAG, most Americans are relative idiots; for them, bigger is better, except perhaps in terms of race lengths, since their attention spans aren't necessarily so great.

Relative to whom? That's just the damn dumbest, most arrogant (and, as long as we are using the characterization, idiotic) sentence I can remember reading. We are all a bit dumber for having been exposed to it.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Purist

JAG, status would NOT increase for those events if there were only a few of them; they would fall off the radar altogether, as sportscar racing would garner even less attention, relatively speaking, over here than they do now with the ALMS as it is.

Remember, JAG, most Americans are relative idiots; for them, bigger is better, except perhaps in terms of race lengths, since their attention spans aren't necessarily so great. That does mean, however, that more cars on the grids and more total races are by default considered a good thing by a lot of people over here. Remember, ALMS (and that includes those sparse couple of marquee events) have to compete on some level with a 36-race NASCAR Sprint Cup schedule (that's 36 rounds over 36 weekends) with 43 cars each weekend, and with a dozen or so of the races being at least 500 miles. Though less of an issue, there is also the 17-race Indy Car season, with the Indy 500 that by itself still garners far more attention than Sebring or PLM in the grand scheme of things here in the States.

Point is, JAG, fewer but longer races may work in Europe, but the ALMS MUST run more total races than the LMS does now, or it will simply disappear because it can't garner any season-long attention. I just don't see Sebring and PLM being able to sustain themselves as mere standalone events.

IMO the sooner the ALMS quits it's attempts to compete with the likes of NASCAR, and more realistically Indycar, the better.

The only timer sportscar racing garners mainstream attention is when manufactuer's use their financial muscle to promote events and put together advertising campaigns.

Sportscar fans follow the cars, outside of Le Mans the actual event or series isn't a major factor IMO, that's why FIA GT1's at Laguna Seca
and the first PLM were so successful.

If the Daytona 24hrs accepted ACO cars, and the major teams showed up, it would overnight return to it's status as second only to Le Mans, likewise if Grand Am bought Sebring and Road Atlanta, these events would fall off the radar for the internation audience and many home grown fans.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Really? There aren't a great many European teams coming to the states for these races right now, and which American teams would be willing and able to buy a ACO-type racecar for just two outings a year?

By 2011 the LMIC should be attracting over half a dozen P1 entrants, including at least two manufactuer's, which would be as good as any Sebring for the past decade.

On the GT side anyone with a Le Mans program would want to be represented at Sebring and PLM for marketing purposes, just as they want to be represented at the Nurburgring 24hrs.

At this stage your already at the 15-20 car point, LMP3 and GT3 type cars could fill the rest of the grid with cars that are campaigned in numerous events across North America.

On the one hand people talk about the ALMS being visible and attracting mainstream audiences, but these audiences are only concerned with the fight at the head of the field. In fact I believe that's all most sportscar fans are interested in, that's why we welcomed Audi vs Peugeot in the LMS and Audi vs Porsche vs Acura in the ALMS, the rest is window dressing.

IMO the LMIC will eventually include all classes, it's relationship to the LMS and ALMS will work simlar to the WSC and SAT1 Supercup/Interseries, most serious Le Mans players will want to be part of the big show.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

The only timer sportscar racing garners mainstream attention is when manufactuer's use their financial muscle to promote events and put together advertising campaigns.

Which is why they need to be encouraged to run in the ALMS and LMS, not provided ways not to run in them.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

On the GT side anyone with a Le Mans program would want to be represented at Sebring and PLM for marketing purposes, just as they want to be represented at the Nurburgring 24hrs.

Whom exactly are you talking about? There has been no interest from European entrants, largely with European Companies logos on them (if they have logos) at all. For most of them, running in North America makes no sense. This is pure fantasy.

Does IMSA Matmut have a marketing reason to advertise in North America?
How about Gulf's European Division?
Or Dunlop's European Division?
Why do privateers who pay for this out of pocket have a marketing reason to be there?
Better yet, please list all the LMS GT sponsors who would have great ROI from Marketing themselves at PLM and Sebring.

At this stage your already at the 15-20 car point, LMP3 and GT3 type cars could fill the rest of the grid with cars that are campaigned in numerous events across North America.

Quite the contrary, maybe you have your half a dozen LMP1's and that's it. Where exactly are these LMP3 and GT3 "type" cars coming from? Is this some imaginary series that has yet to be formed? There isn't a place for LMP3 or GT3 type cars in North America, and there won't be.

On the one hand people talk about the ALMS being visible and attracting mainstream audiences, but these audiences are only concerned with the fight at the head of the field. In fact I believe that's all most sportscar fans are interested in, that's why we welcomed Audi vs Peugeot in the LMS and Audi vs Porsche vs Acura in the ALMS, the rest is window dressing.

If you are correct, it is very puzzling why so many people turn out to see Corvettes race. They have a huge following, and are regularly voted as the most popular in the ALMS. The drivers, the teams, the events of the year... Corvette, Corvette, Corvette. It is kind of nauseating to be honest, but the reality is that there are a ton of people who care more about the GT's than they do the Prototypes. The Corvette Coral attracts far more cars and people than the others combined... hmmmm

IMO the LMIC will eventually include all classes, it's relationship to the LMS and ALMS will work simlar to the WSC and SAT1 Supercup/Interseries, most serious Le Mans players will want to be part of the big show.

The only way you get all classes in LMIC, is if all of the manufacturer entrants are in it. If that is the case, the ALMS is dead. I'm not sure why this is hard for you to understand. The ALMS needs Manufacturer money as income, to survive. Without a viable income source, the ALMS is DEAD. No Money, no ALMS.

How many ALMS events have you been to Jag? Do you understand that businesses that pay out more than they take in, eventually cease to exist? Do you understand how the ALMS makes money?

If you don't, go here -> http://www.lastturnclub.com/

Read Operating Revenue and Costs of the American Le Mans Series and IMSA - Part 1-3

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by JAG

IMO the LMIC will eventually include all classes

I do expect the GT1 and/or GT2 classes to join it. But the others classes are meant for small-scale privateers, and I believe that they shouldn't be encouraged to visit other continents unless they switch to higher classes.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

There isn't a place for LMP3 or GT3 type cars in North America, and there won't be.

I don't understand the LMP3 thing either (unless JAG means LMPC), but the ALMS GTC class is obviously a GT3 with brand restriction (Porsche only today, possibly Audi in the future), and either an open GT3 or a restricted one could be added to the Euro Le Mans Series if GT2 cars get too costly.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I don't understand the LMP3 thing either (unless JAG means LMPC), but the ALMS GTC class is obviously a GT3 with brand restriction (Porsche only today, possibly Audi in the future), and either an open GT3 or a restricted one could be added to the Euro Le Mans Series if GT2 cars get too costly.

Under JAG's most recent scenario he has all the factory's in GT and LMP categories running in LMIC.

Certainly we can agree that there would be no ALMS as it currently sits, and that the Panoz group would be out of the picture. That leaves us with new track owners (NASCAR?) and maybe a new series (or just Grand-AM?), which is not likely to follow ACO direction. Then there is no LMIC in North America.

No ALMS = no GTC, no LMP-C. Where do these cars come from then?

I should probably exit now, I've gone in circles enough.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Under JAG's most recent scenario he has all the factory's in GT and LMP categories running in LMIC.

Certainly we can agree that there would be no ALMS as it currently sits, and that the Panoz group would be out of the picture. That leaves us with new track owners (NASCAR?) and maybe a new series (or just Grand-AM?), which is not likely to follow ACO direction. Then there is no LMIC in North America.

No ALMS = no GTC, no LMP-C. Where do these cars come from then?

I should probably exit now, I've gone in circles enough.

But I have so enjoyed watching you try........, alas!





L.P.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Under JAG's most recent scenario he has all the factory's in GT and LMP categories running in LMIC.

Certainly we can agree that there would be no ALMS as it currently sits, and that the Panoz group would be out of the picture. That leaves us with new track owners (NASCAR?) and maybe a new series (or just Grand-AM?), which is not likely to follow ACO direction. Then there is no LMIC in North America.

No ALMS = no GTC, no LMP-C. Where do these cars come from then?

I should probably exit now, I've gone in circles enough.

You can only spell out the facts so many times and so many ways, Fogelhund...some will just refuse to accept them.

(sigh)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Which is why they need to be encouraged to run in the ALMS and LMS, not provided ways not to run in them.

Manufactuers have tried the LMS, they ain't coming back, there has also been ample opportunity for Audi to back the ALMS in their hour of need, potentially retaining Acura in P1, but they've chosen not to.

The above is also no answer to the important Asian market.

You believe this all down to the economy, I don't, I believe it's a more fundamental problem with the structure of the ALMS, dwindling P1
and GT1 fields were masked by the arrival of Porsche and Acura P2's and fine GT2 battles.

You yourself say the ALMS may not see out 2010, regardless of the LMIC, your prediction everything else could fall like a stack of cards is precisely why Le Mans, Europe and Asia have to do what's best for themselves.

[Fogelhund]

Ugg... I said I wouldn't post again, and here I am.

Originally Posted by JAG

Manufactuers have tried the LMS, they ain't coming back, there has also been ample opportunity for Audi to back the ALMS in their hour of need, potentially retaining Acura in P1, but they've chosen not to.

So, Europe isn't worth running on it's own, and we'll create the LMIC, likely being the final straw that broke the camels back, eliminating the LMIC from running in North America, making the LMIC a mostly European series. The Manufacturers don't want to run in Europe, so they'll abandon the LMIC. Oh... now I get it.

You believe this all down to the economy, I don't, I believe it's a more fundamental problem with the structure of the ALMS, dwindling P1
and GT1 fields were masked by the arrival of Porsche and Acura P2's and fine GT2 battles.

I've never once, anywhere claimed that the ALMS's issues were due to economy.

The GT1 fields were never big enough to have dwindled. Ok... sure from 4-5 to... none... but then half of that went to GT2... count the GT's overall..

Yes, there is a fundamental structure issue with the ALMS. Too tied to ridiculous ACO decisions.

You yourself say the ALMS may not see out 2010, regardless of the LMIC, your prediction everything else could fall like a stack of cards is precisely why Le Mans, Europe and Asia have to do what's best for themselves.

I guess it isn't possible to understand that sometimes doing something ends up hurting Le Mans and Europe too. Asia? They don't have anything in this. Asia is a push from France, to try and gain entries.

[Purist]

TWK, in the developed world, US academic scores are poor to say the least. There is also a damn lot of willful ingorance on the part of Americans about the rest of the world, and even about how our own country works. It would NOT surprise me in the least if a far greater percentage Latin America, and possibly even Europe, knows how the US political system works compared to the percentage of Americans who actually know how their own system operates.

And as for attention span, it's funny how even though a football game can last four hours, most plays probably don't even last 10 secons, and then, because we weren't paying enough attention for even that short a window, we have umpteen "instant replays" (and every one of those comes in "slo-mo" too, lol).

Ok, back to being a little more serious on the actual thread topic.

There was mention not long ago by a few that manufacturers should be required to contest one of the three continental series in order to be eligible for the LMIC. My thought is that any works (manufacturer) team should be required to run one of the continental series to be eligible for Le Mans itself, and if you become eligible for LM, you're then allowed to take part in the LMIC. Constructor teams, like Oreca, Zytek, WR, etc, or very small automakers, like TVR, Morgan, Mosler, Saleen, etc, would be exempt from this stipulation.

Of course, I'd really like to see mandated ACO inspections to prove the existence of, say, five complete customer cars BEFORE the works team is permitted to take to the track in ACO-rules events.

JAG, I know that this doesn't cover the Asian market, but that's kind of a moot point while there is still nil for ACO racing in Asia anyway. North America is a major market for the manufacturers even now, and the economy IS a big reason why the automakers don't have their P1s over here full-time. And don't think collapse of the continental series will leave Le Mans uneffected, or do we need to revisit Le Mans from around 1992. In 1991 and 1992, there were fewer than 40 cars that made the start. From 1988 up to 2007 or 2008, I think there was but 1 full grid at Le Mans (50 cars started in 2002), and now, of course, a full grid is once again 55 cars; way back when, a full grid was 60 cars, but who knows when the last time was that that many cars even made it for the Le Mans Test.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Purist

TWK, in the developed world, US academic scores are poor to say the least. There is also a damn lot of willful ingorance on the part of Americans about the rest of the world, and even about how our own country works. It would NOT surprise me in the least if a far greater percentage Latin America, and possibly even Europe, knows how the US political system works compared to the percentage of Americans who actually know how their own system operates.

And as for attention span, it's funny how even though a football game can last four hours, most plays probably don't even last 10 secons, and then, because we weren't paying enough attention for even that short a window, we have umpteen "instant replays" (and every one of those comes in "slo-mo" too, lol).

Boy am I tempted to point out your typos as you put down my most beloved country on Earth and call your fellow residents and citizens stupid, and doing so erroneously in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Purist

Ok, back to being a little more serious on the actual thread topic.

There was mention not long ago by a few that manufacturers should be required to contest one of the three continental series in order to be eligible for the LMIC. My thought is that any works (manufacturer) team should be required to run one of the continental series to be eligible for Le Mans itself, and if you become eligible for LM, you're then allowed to take part in the LMIC. Constructor teams, like Oreca, Zytek, WR, etc, or very small automakers, like TVR, Morgan, Mosler, Saleen, etc, would be exempt from this stipulation.

Of course, I'd really like to see mandated ACO inspections to prove the existence of, say, five complete customer cars BEFORE the works team is permitted to take to the track in ACO-rules events.

JAG, I know that this doesn't cover the Asian market, but that's kind of a moot point while there is still nil for ACO racing in Asia anyway. North America is a major market for the manufacturers even now, and the economy IS a big reason why the automakers don't have their P1s over here full-time. And don't think collapse of the continental series will leave Le Mans uneffected, or do we need to revisit Le Mans from around 1992. In 1991 and 1992, there were fewer than 40 cars that made the start. From 1988 up to 2007 or 2008, I think there was but 1 full grid at Le Mans (50 cars started in 2002), and now, of course, a full grid is once again 55 cars; way back when, a full grid was 60 cars, but who knows when the last time was that that many cars even made it for the Le Mans Test.

Add to that the success the ALMS has had has done much to bolster the reemergence of the 24 Hours of Le Mans this decade. The race is very much an extension of the ALMS to many fans. As much as we love to downplay the average American's interest in the race, it is probably the highest it has ever been and the massive base of intelligent, affluent people in the U.S's car culture are very interested in how the teams running their favorite cars, and even racing versions of their road cars do in that race as a result of the ALMS.

As a fan of the ALMS and its accessibility to me the fan in terms of events, TV, Internet etc. it would be hard for me to say I would sacrifice the ALMS for a World Championship (call it what it is) that is not guaranteed to be covered in the U.S.

Chris

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Too tied to ridiculous ACO decisions.

Sure.... and IMSA is paradise on earth!

There are plenty things wrong with ACO but the problem over there (North America) is to have a bunch of 'old frogs' (murphy dixit) telling you what you should or not do!

Get ALMS a separate set of rules, it sure wont be the first time, or second, or the third.... and maybe, those 'old frogs' will create a separate class for ALMS cars.

It's the natural way... The world has F1, you have Indy. The world as WTCC, you have Nascar, The world will have LMIC... the world as kilometres and kilograms, you have miles and pounds...

If this is a simple business question, than all this discussion was completely futile. ALMS fans 'demand' a strong series with strong entries (pilots an team), well, we over here also do! So... may the best win, because someone wont agree to share (LMIC).

One thing is certain... having the best pilots and teams all concentrate in the ALMS is, first of all, good for the ALMS not for sports car in general.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Add to that the success the ALMS has had has done much to bolster the reemergence of the 24 Hours of Le Mans this decade.

Mainly true.... what do you want? eternal obedience to IMSA interests?

Originally Posted by Jonerz

The race is very much an extension of the ALMS to many fans.

What?!
LOL
The world is bigger than the US borders...

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

Mainly true.... what do you want? eternal obedience to IMSA interests?


What?!
LOL
The world is bigger than the US borders...

Read: Le Mans is an extension of the ALMS to many ALMS fans.

You are misinterpreting post by taking them out of context and applying its meaning to your own views.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

You are misinterpreting post by taking them out of context and applying its meaning to your own views.

No i'm not... that's why i said that the world is bigger than the US borderes. I can understand that for the americans, le mans is just a 'special' ALMS round outside US, but even so, that is completely ridiculous, and for once (well, more than once to be fair) i totally agree with Purist "(...) in the developed world, US academic scores are poor to say the least. There is also a damn lot of willful ingorance on the part of Americans about the rest of the world, and even about how our own country works (...)"

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Read: Le Mans is an extension of the ALMS to many ALMS fans.

You are misinterpreting post by taking them out of context and applying its meaning to your own views.

Not the first time, nor will it be the last!






L.P.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

No i'm not... that's why i said that the world is bigger than the US borderes. I can understand that for the americans, le mans is just a 'special' ALMS round outside US, but even so, that is completely ridiculous, and for once (well, more than once to be fair) i totally agree with Purist "(...) in the developed world, US academic scores are poor to say the least. There is also a damn lot of willful ingorance on the part of Americans about the rest of the world, and even about how our own country works (...)"

Well, you just did it again. He was writing about American sports car fans from an American point of view. If you truly understand then why is it ridiculous? Come mid-May not only is it one of the biggest races in the world, it's also "the next sportscar race".

OT but... While I agree with him, taking Purist comments out of context and applying them to me is insulting. You don't know anything about me and I about you. This is a two way street, so to speak. There are as many misconceptions about Americans as Americans are ignorant of others.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Not the first time, nor will it be the last!

LOL...
Sorry for disturbing the king of the forum!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Well, you just did it again. He was writing about American sports car fans from an American point of view. If you truly understand then why is it ridiculous? Come mid-May not only is it one of the biggest races in the world, it's also "the next sportscar race".

There is a lot of 'Old Continent" Colonial arrogance that i don't like in some european state of mind. The same goes for those in that part of world that thinks that anything that is american is best or more important than anything else. That's why its ridiculous... its all about thinking that anything outside US is just a meaningless bunch of crap.

Originally Posted by JHamilton

OT but... While I agree with him, taking Purist comments out of context and applying them to me is insulting. You don't know anything about me and I about you. This is a two way street, so to speak. There are as many misconceptions about Americans as Americans are ignorant of others.

Sorry, but it didn't cross my mind to apply Purist words to you, because as you say: "You don't know anything about me and I about you". Just used them as an example of what makes possible to exist the kind of thinking i described above.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Ugg... I said I wouldn't post again, and here I am.



So, Europe isn't worth running on it's own, and we'll create the LMIC, likely being the final straw that broke the camels back, eliminating the LMIC from running in North America, making the LMIC a mostly European series. The Manufacturers don't want to run in Europe, so they'll abandon the LMIC. Oh... now I get it.



I've never once, anywhere claimed that the ALMS's issues were due to economy.

The GT1 fields were never big enough to have dwindled. Ok... sure from 4-5 to... none... but then half of that went to GT2... count the GT's overall..

Yes, there is a fundamental structure issue with the ALMS. Too tied to ridiculous ACO decisions.



I guess it isn't possible to understand that sometimes doing something ends up hurting Le Mans and Europe too. Asia? They don't have anything in this. Asia is a push from France, to try and gain entries.

The ALMS is a good platform for European manufactuer's, afterall they sell many cars there, ultimately they will be the ones who decide the future of the series and if two or three US races are all they need.

Asia on the other has at least half a dozen home grown manufactuer's, most with a strong Le Mans heritage, but to get something off the ground a lot of time and money needs to be invested.

[Purist]

The issue with the ALMS and this whole thing is that a series will NOT survive over here on just two or three races. There has to be more than that, or there will be NO races run to roughly ACO regulations in North America, period. It's reasonable to say that for a series to survive in North America, it's simply a requirement for it to have at least 6-7 races per season. Otherwise, people don't know it even exists, the series falls off the radar, it can't get sponsors, can't get cars, and either dies completely or is absorbed by somebody else.

JAG, are you sure you're not confusing Asia with Japan? Acura/Honda, Datsun/Nissan, Toyota, and Mazda are all Japanese. And unless I'm forgetting a very short-lived Mitsubishi effort, I don't think ANY other Asian automakers have even been to Le Mans. As far as I'm aware, the Daewoo, Daihatsu, Suzuki, Subaru, Tata, Kia, and Hyundai brands have never been to the French classic.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

There is a lot of 'Old Continent" Colonial arrogance that i don't like in some european state of mind. The same goes for those in that part of world that thinks that anything that is american is best or more important than anything else. That's why its ridiculous... its all about thinking that anything outside US is just a meaningless bunch of crap.



Sorry, but it didn't cross my mind to apply Purist words to you, because as you say: "You don't know anything about me and I about you". Just used them as an example of what makes possible to exist the kind of thinking i described above.

Fair enough, miscommunication... the biggest problem with internet forums is conveying exactly what you mean through a keyboard.

I can assure you that myself and the others that have posted in defense to the ALMS (let's not forget our Canadian friends that show up in great numbers) have what's best for sportscar racing at heart. We are all here posting because of Le Mans, sportscar racing Mecca. It is in no way, shape, or form, crap.

What I feel may not being conveyed strongly enough is the dire straits of the ALMS. If the ALMS fails for whatever reason, be it the LMIC or a list of other reasons, the biggest loss will not be teams or sponsors (IMO) but the tracks. I think Sebring and Road Atlanta would be swallowed up by Nascar, losing their connection with Le Mans all together. This is the major concern. We (N. Americans) want to be involved with international sportscar racing, but if we lose the ALMS or PMG we potentially lose that connection. I think that the loss of Sebring and PLM would be a huge loss to international motorsport, therefore, what affects the ALMS is or should be a concern to all fans.

Arrogant? Maybe. But you gotta pull for the home team right?