Chevy Out After 2005

[mountainstar]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/13770/

Editted to remove flaming / trolling.

[GP Racer]

Well its a sad day, when an American manufacturer cannot compete with foreign ones, in an American series. I find it strange that Panther would even put up with them for another season, when they've made it perfectly clear that there out of here. I'd tell them to take a hike, and to take that boat anchor of an engine with them.

Editted to remove a personal attack, even if it was well-deserved.

[mountainstar]

But seriously I think the reason why Panther is sticking with them, is that they don't really have a choice.

From the sound of it, the financial support from Chevy is getting pulled for 2005, so there are interesting times to come.

Editted to remove the quotation of something else I've just editted.

[Team Owner]

Seems that all mountainstar wants to do is stir up trouble on this forum. Oh well,boys will be boys.


Had to edit out the URL, with regrets.

[mountainstar]

Facts are Facts Mr. team owner.

Chevy is gone and what's gonna happen now?

[GP Racer]

While Chevy is at it, they can take their pace cars, emergency vehicles, VIP cars, and hospitality vehicles with em! I don't even want to see a Chevy in the parking lot anymore either! They better have nothing with a Chevy badge on it at Indy.

It's no wonder there is so little respect left for GM anymore. They owned this series, and at the first sign of some competition, they put their tails between their legs and they run.

Oh well, mystery solved, see ya Chevy!

[climb]

Now a new issue for thsi silly season: will GM be replaced?
Since they will leave in 2006, there would be time for another to set up a decent alternative to japanese.

[BootsOntheSide]

You're being a bit unfair there GP Racer. Chevrolet went to a major effort to initially get competitive against Toyota and Honda - it was only when the new engine rules came in this year that they ceased to be competitive. They get much more positive publicity from NASCAR, and might as well concentrate on that, as it has much more US attention.

This is bad news for the smaller IRL teams though, as many would struggle to find a new supplier they can afford. If CART opens its engine rules up for 2006, manufactuers might be mroe tempted by that, so attracting newcomers will be tricky. Cosworth might be able to continue the program with new backing, but not of Kevin Kalkoven buys it.

[camcartfan]

Do you think Chevy pulled the plug because Cosworth is being sold and they can't guarantee a continued effort? I initially thought the Chevy/Cosworth connection was just for a quick fix. No? You'd think Chevy has the resources to eventually better their engine without Cosworth.

[GTRMagic]

Chevy (Olds really) used to do well against the Infiniti engine... when the series was in its formative times...

... but in the cold, hard light of day, the engine is uncompetitive, despite being with some pretty strong teams.

Its sad they are going, but arguably the "true" Chev left the minute they hooked up with Cosworth.

The choice of alternate categories seems a trifle obscure to me however....

[marcus]

I thought they were starting to get their heads around it towards years end.

A shame but I hope they can provide a decent engine for the program they have left.

[BSchneiderFan]

Disaster. Complete disaster. And I don't fancy the IRL's chances if only Toyota and Honda are left to slug it out.

[Kicking-back]

This is the same problem manufacturers caused over in CART, and have done historically in Sportscars and are at risk of doing in F1.

Manufacturers are good as suppliers - but don't let them control the series.

[enemy-ace]

It's unfortunate for the IRL. But the simple fact is that expenses to be competitive in the IRL are high and yet TV rating and fan attendance are low or just stagnant. Chevrolet is a business and their return on investment is not being satisfied. That's according to Doug Duchardt, the director of GM Racing.
The IRL needs to take this as a warning for fear they go the direction of CART.

[indycool]

The next few months should be interesting. Who will buy the Cosworth entities that are for sale by Ford and/or Audi? How will that affect (if at all, because some say Chevy has already pulled its program in-house) the Chevworth in '05? When '07 IRL specs are announced, will some other manufacturer make a deal to use and continue to develop the Chevworth in '06 and strike a bargain for '07 and beyond? How will Mecachrome's association with Cheever wind up in the mix?

Time will tell.

[Team Owner]

Chevy told the IRL that if their new specs for 2007 were more production based that they would consider staying. Toyota is very warm to that idea as they have now started to pour money into their IRL program to compete with Honda. Honda is very cool to that idea of a production based engine as they don't buid one.

Chevy has always " cut and run" when the going got tough. The only reason they are competitive in Nascar is the fact that the teams do their own engineering and R & D on engines. When GM is left to their own devices they usually fail, remember the Gen III disaster?
Toyota and Honda being in the league have made GM realize that they aren't smart enough to compete with them.
If GM were to have decided to be competitive it would have cost them millions of dollars. Why should they do that when they get so much bang for the buck in Nascar and the teams do all their engineering for them? DEI, Carl Wegner, Childress and other GM engine builders are way more advanced than GM ever will be.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by mountainstar
Facts are Facts Mr. team owner.

Chevy is gone and what's gonna happen now?

Sounds like Honda and Toyota will be competing against each other, mountainstar....

But in reality, once they came into the IRL, Chevy was at least a step behind anyway....

I also agree 1000% with Team Owner on this one....

GM had a sportscar LMP program badged as Cadillac that was just beginning to make progress and had really gotten fast and competitive in the 3rd year of the program (due more to Wayne Taylor and his people than GM, BTW)....

But they pulled the plug on it and wouldn't even let Taylor run it as a privateer....because they didn't have the patience and the foresight to see that it takes some time to get competitive....and they didn't want the Cadillac name associated iwth a privateer effort...

Thus thee are 5 or 6 world-class endurance prototypes that have been collecting dust, when they could have been racing and getting even better and faster...

Some may argue that GM's Corvette program in GTS DOES win, and they are staying the course with that program, but that entire effort is a Pratt & Miller-engineered program...in the same way that NASCAR's GM efforts with Hendricks, Childress, & DEI are doing all of the engineering, etc...

This news didn't surprise me one bit....like Team Owner says, GM has a history of "cut and run," and they didn't have to do any real hard work earlier in their IRL life, because Infiniti wasn't putting any real money into their efforts back in the 1990s and the earlt part of this century....

When the competition got tougher, they couldn't hack it....and it is cheaper to pull the plug than it is to work at getting better....

[Tim Northcutt]

By the way....

Before all of the OWRS-types start chirping about this, GM clearly said that they have no interest in going to Champ Car...

[climb]

Continuing on your logic path, Tim, I have to say that GM absence will actually make the series more interesting, as there'll be no more teams excluded from victory before the green start.

Squads like Panther and Cheever will be allowed to be prothagonist again.

[Muzza]

I feel for the IRL, but I am not at all surprised.

Just a repetition of General Motors shameful history of "commitment" to motorsports (since the company foundation). See my numerous posts on this concern along years in this forum...

1.) The decision has nothing to do with cost-cutting measures - it was yet another "marketing strategic move"... A close friend of mine (friends for more than 20 years) is a Strategic Operations Manager for GM and told me that - and he is quite ****ed off.

2.) It confirms what I (and other at Ten Tenths members) had said several times: GM had no interest whatsoever in Cosworth.

3.) I do not believe in a Mecachrome involvement in any serious racing activity in North America - IRL or another, not even rallies - for years to come.

4.) Please do not take my words as "coming from a Champ Car fan": I am concerned - and I heard this as recently as five weeks ago - with Toyota involvement past the 2006 season. I can confirm from inside sources (Toyota USA Brand Manager) that for the time being Toyota has suspended its IRL budget for 2007 and beyond. It has not been cancelled, but it has been suspended.


Muzza

[indycool]

Understand and agree with most all, Muzza. But I'm curious to know what "suspension" of a budget three years down the pike might mean. I don't know how you "suspend" a budget that you haven't had to make a decision on yet in the first place. Specs aren't even out.

[Tim Northcutt]

To Muzza:

Check your PMs....

I'm looking for a link or info in Brazil that you might be able to provide for me that is a tangent to a subject you and I had corresponded about recently..

Thanks!

[climb]

Originally posted by Muzza
...I can confirm from inside sources (Toyota USA Brand Manager) that for the time being Toyota has suspended its IRL budget for 2007 and beyond. It has not been cancelled, but it has been suspended.
...

It's no mistery, I guess, that Toyota are pushing hard to enter Nascar as a car provider.
Should they be accepted, their IRL budget would be, of course, challenged.
But strong political pressure is being made by american manufacturers in order to obstruct it, so it's not sure at all that Toyota will success. Therefore It's not sure at all that they'll leave IRL.

[Snrub]

Classic big 3 behaviour, not a surprise at all, but a shame for the IRL. Team Owner's comments are quiet interesting. Has some agreement on the 2007 spec come about? Recall that with CART there was some disagreement between Honda and Toyota regarding the spec. Honda wanted smaller displacement turbo engines, Toyota wanted a n/a engine. Toyota left as a result. Honda had been jerked around, partially due to CART's pandering to Toyota's whining that Ford and Honda were "cheating", so they left too.

From the article:
“That worked for us. There‘s no secret that the costs have gone up and the TV ratings and attendance have been flat or down.”

While the TV point is probably true, I don't think the audience part is. Doesn't seem right to blame the series for your own inability/unwillingness to compete.

It's a real kick in the pants for Carpentier who recently signed with Cheever when GM has admitted that they will concentrate on Panther. Let's be honest, it's unlikely that Chevy engines will be anywhere close if 2005 if going to be the final year.

[Muzza]

Originally posted by indycool
Understand and agree with most all, Muzza. But I'm curious to know what "suspension" of a budget three years down the pike might mean. I don't know how you "suspend" a budget that you haven't had to make a decision on yet in the first place. Specs aren't even out.

Originally posted by climb
It's no mistery, I guess, that Toyota are pushing hard to enter Nascar as a car provider.
Should they be accepted, their IRL budget would be, of course, challenged.
But strong political pressure is being made by american manufacturers in order to obstruct it, so it's not sure at all that Toyota will success. Therefore It's not sure at all that they'll leave IRL.

I will write as well as I remember my conversation with the "Toyota person": Toyota, as any business, allocates funds to specific needs years ahead of spending it (sorry for writing that Indycool, I recognize you know that! I am mentioning this in order to provide the background of the information I received).

Toyota had already reserved a "certain" budget (*) for its involvement in the IRL covering the years of 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008. Then, a some two months ago, an "asterisk" was put on the 2007 and 2008 budget. This leaked to managers in other areas of that company some 60 days ago.

"Asterisking" a credit - I used to do this in a previous job I had, but in another industry, not automotive - means that it is "suspended" (blocked, funds not available) until further evaluation.

I completely agree with climb words above about the fact that, should NASCAR accepts Toyota entrance, its IRL budget will surely be re-evaluated. I just fear that Toyota is realizing that investing in open-wheel racing in the United States (note that I said open-wheel racing, and not IRL or Champ Car or whatever) is not justifiable anymore.

(*) Please don't ask me how large is Toyota's budget for the IRL. I guess it hovers around 25 to 70 million dollars a year, depending on what you include in it (promotions, marketing, overhead, etc.). I guess the technical budget is some 18-25 million for 2004.


Muzza