20+ car ChampCar GRID Shaping Up ?!?!

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by racinthestreets
C'mom - is the Indy 500 really that important to win nowadays? It has lost its prestiege over the years.

It has not lost the purse though, and it is still the 500. The history of the 500 has not lost any prestige IMO. Long live CCWS.

and Money Sure Does Talk....

The payout for Last Place at the 500 is as much, if not more, than the winning purses at most races...

[JohnSSC]

The funniest thing that has happened few days ago is that Foyt's #14 got UN-retired and now belongs to Eric Bachelart's Conquest team (Alex Sperafico)... hihihaha... about time AJ got erased from CART annals ?! (sorry - this quote is from a post in this thread by zer0.)


zer0 - now the above is just plain not right. I will be the first to agree that late in his career Foyt became almost a caricature of himself.

That being said there is not a single driver in the field currently (nor has ther been since Mario) who could hold his helmet bag. AJ has been successful in almost every type of racing on every type of surface during his career.

You may not like his decisions to go and stay with IRL, but making statements that imply his history, his contributions, his effort and yes his star power (which attracted people's attention to the sport and to open wheel racing) should somehow be erased is disrespectful to one of the all-time great drivers.

Mods, I apologize if this is over the line but I have really grown tired of the constant slamming and disrespect shown to people like AJ, like Michael Andretti AND Bobby Rahal simply because they went IRL. We cannot discuss the drivers on their driving merits without having to wade through "kaka" like this.

There are multiple posters who make all judgements and respond to any post that may be so much as neutral about some of these folks with attacks about what terrible people they are. No facts, just vitriol.

I really like this Forum, but I really wish that we could discuss things here without having to dismiss, dislike, disregard and disrespect drivers who should be considered the foundation of what we love so much to be built on.

If this is the Champ Car forum than we should be able to discuss Champ Car pat and present and Champ Car drivers, past and present.

I do not think this is too much to ask.

[Tim Northcutt]

That being said there is not a single driver in the field currently (nor has ther been since Mario) who could hold his helmet bag. AJ has been successful in almost every type of racing on every type of surface during his career.

You may not like his decisions to go and stay with IRL, but making statements that imply his history, his contributions, his effort and yes his star power (which attracted people's attention to the sport and to open wheel racing) should somehow be erased is disrespectful to one of the all-time great drivers.

Mods, I apologize if this is over the line but I have really grown tired of the constant slamming and disrespect shown to people like AJ, like Michael Andretti AND Bobby Rahal simply because they went IRL. We cannot discuss the drivers on their driving merits without having to wade through "kaka" like this.

There are multiple posters who make all judgements and respond to any post that may be so much as neutral about some of these folks with attacks about what terrible people they are. No facts, just vitriol.

I really like this Forum, but I really wish that we could discuss things here without having to dismiss, dislike, disregard and disrespect drivers who should be considered the foundation of what we love so much to be built on.

If this is the Champ Car forum than we should be able to discuss Champ Car pat and present and Champ Car drivers, past and present.

I do not think this is too much to ask.
Last edited by JohnSSC on 21 Apr 2004 at 01:29




I agree 110% JohnSCC....

How many drivers currently in Champ Cars can claim 67 wins in this form of racing, as well as numeous series championships?

How many can also claim a win at Le Mans????

Or more than one win at the Daytona 500?

Like him or not, A.J. was fast in everything he ever drove that ran on four wheels....

It is unfair to his record, and to open-wheeled racing's history, to slam somebody just because he has chosen to take his marbles to another game in town...

[Muzza]

John SSC and Tim,

Please count with my support to your words.

There are hundreds of racing fora in the Internet, but I choose to participate at Ten Tenths due to the level of knowledge (and enthusiasm) displayed by its members and by their capacity to debate intelligently. Let's please, all of us, keep it like this.

By the way - and I should have written this earlier - having the same team of moderators operating in the Champ Car and IRL fora was an excellent idea.

Regards,


Muzza

[racinthestreets]

Well said. I support that we should talk about the driver and races of the CCWS past, present and future.

However, remember that you are acknowleding the freedom to speak freely. Someone may not like AJ for their own reasons - his racing record speaks for itself. However, he is not the most personable chap. As for Bobby Rahal, he said it best - "I am sure that people are crossing me off the Christmas Card list" or something to that effect. For me, I am chosing not to add him to the list.

[cartpix]

Tim,

I have nothing against AJ or Michael, for that matter. At least, when Mikey left, he did it all above board. I talked to him, after the California 500, he told me it was simply business. I respect his candor.

Rahal & Fernandez, on the other hand, showed up at the launch, showed their support, for the series, & ran away. Rahal was the worst of the two. He told us he would go where his sponsors wanted him to go. I would call him a liar, but I believe the sponsor, he was talking about, was Honda.

Jeff

[racinthestreets]

Hello CartPix: Real quick on Mikey. I like him as well. In Vancouver 2001, we used paint and a hotel bed sheet to make a sign for Mike A. It said Mike A. in big black letters across the top then we painted IRL with the internationally known red circle with a line through it. We sat right behind their pit and held the sign up. We got many cheers and his crew even took pictures. After the race, which Dario won, I went back to the paddock to have Dario sign it. I saw Mike on a scooter with his son and asked him to sign it. He said, "If I do move it is only business, I love this series" and, he did sign it. When I asked Dario to sign it, he said he couldn't, I said look Mike has signed - he was amazed and said if Mike signed I'm signing. It is a treasured momento.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by cartpix
Tim,

I have nothing against AJ or Michael, for that matter. At least, when Mikey left, he did it all above board. I talked to him, after the California 500, he told me it was simply business. I respect his candor.

Rahal & Fernandez, on the other hand, showed up at the launch, showed their support, for the series, & ran away. Rahal was the worst of the two. He told us he would go where his sponsors wanted him to go. I would call him a liar, but I believe the sponsor, he was talking about, was Honda.

Jeff

I appreciate your opinions and your right to express them, Jeff...as a long-time Forum member, I have a great deal of respect for you, and other insightful contributors such as Liz, Mags, and many, many others that would take too much space and time to list compeletely in this reply....

However, the following is reality...

Feel free to look up every point that I am about to make, because they can be found or verified by checking other journalistic sources or the internet....

When Rahal announced that he was moving all of his operations from oWRS to the other series, he was quoted as saying that it was a "difficult" decision to make in light of his many years in what was CART....but that as a businessman, sometimes you have to make decisions "with your head and not your heart" and that the decision was made because he has 65 people working in his racing operation whose paycheck and livelihood depend on his business decisions...

He also acknowledged that Honda DID in fact paly a part in his decision.....

What's wrong with an engine manufacturer that he introduced to North American open-wheeled racing in 1994 playing a part in that business decision????

Does anyone believe that Ford is involved in OWRS out of "Loylaty" to the Series???

If you do, let me enlighten you....

As a business, where would you rather go -- to a Series whee you are the ONLY supplier of engines to at least 18 teams, plus a co-Title Sponsor (and the excellent company exposure that comes with having your name as part of the formal Series name) of the ONLY Series whose engine rules provide you with a market for a warehouse full of engines, parts and turbochargers....

Or do you become one of 4 suppliers (with about 6-10 customers at most) that will require you to waste that warehouse full of inventory and to create, test, develop and market a new product?

INTERESTING NOTE:

Cosworth (of which Ford owns approximately 30-40 percent) DID create an IRL specs. engine...not only did they create it, but last summer, they cut a deal with Chevy to provide it to their IRL teams as the "Gen. IV" engine....a Cosworth powerpalnt with red bow ties on the valve covers instead of blue ovals....

and as a substantial part-owner of Cosworth, I have little doubt that Ford is seeing a little of that profit from that deal show up in their bank accounts....

Is that "Loyalty"....or does that make you a "Turncoat", "Traitor" or someone who is now in cahoots with the "Enemy"...?????


Yes, I've seen many of the "quoted" references above used to describe those who have involvement in the other Series...just look at the LB & Rahal thread that was closed yesterday...you'll see a r

Ford has publicly stated many times that they "are not interested copeting in, or in being involved with, the other series because of their engine formula..."

But is sure didn't keep their "partner" or "Subsidiary" (in case you want to dispute the latter term), Cosworth, from building one, or from cutting a deal with Chevy, did it????

My answer to those two Questions:

To Ford and to Cosworth, this isn't about "Loyalty"...

It's business...strictly business...

Here is why I can make that statement:

Ford's Racing Director, Dan Davis, was asked at LB last week about the reason why they allowed the April 1 deadline to pass regarding the opportunity to "roll" their exisiting engine contract with OWRS into the 2005 season...

His reply:

"We're in a 'wait-and-see' mode"

He did say that this action should NOT be "misconstrued as a vote of 'no-confidence' for the Series....but added, "We're just not in a position to be committing additional years to a Series we don't understand yet."

Is that "Loyalty"???...or will Mr. Davis be vilified as a "Traitor" as well if Ford chooses not to be involved with OWRS next season?

I'll take him at his word...but Ford has been in Champ Cars for many, many years....yet they "don't understand (it) yet?"

If they don't understand it by now, when will they understand it???

FINALLY:

Rahal has been criticized for turning his back on "the Series that made him"....

Facts:

The Rahal family was in sportscar racing...his father raced in sportscars, and at an early age, Bobby worked on those cars with no aspirations of even becoming a race driver....

When asked about his most memorable achievement in racing, rahal responded:

"For me, Sebring was really the most important victory of my career, and that is no way a knock against Indy (Rahal won the 1986 Indy 500). It's just that growing up, Sebring was so important to our family. My parents first took me to Sebring in 1958, and my dad drove there in 1969, 70 and 71. Sebring always meant so much to me, and winning there was really an emotional experience."

Not Indy...not even his three CART Series championships...the latter didn't even get mentioned...

Bobby Rahal's TALENT made him....and the mutual loyalty between himself and Jim Trueblood made him....CART just happend to be a viable vehicle and a logical next step in his career....

and why did Mr. Trueblood start an open-wheeled team in CART???

He wanted to compete and win the biggest prize of all...the Indy 500...something that he and Rahal accomplished together just days before Mr. Trueblood died from cancer...



So don't vilify rahal for his choices...or Ford...or Fernandez

If hemelgarn chooses to join OWRS, I sure won't call him a "Traitor"

Because it's BUSINESS....strictly BUSINESS

and to be successful in business, you must allow facts and intellect to drive your decisions...not emotions...
and rahal drove at Sebring (finished 2nd in 1982) before he ever ran a single lap in competition in CART....



Rahal raced in Formula Atlantic, F2, F3, Can Am, and even had two starts in Formula One (at the USGP and the Candadian GP) in 1978...before CART ever existed...and he didn't join the Series until 1982....

It was his owner, Jim Trueblood, who actually joined the Series and made Bobby his driver...and Trueblood went from sportscars to

[racinthestreets]

Tim, it is obvious how you fell about Rahal. That is great. Jeff did say it the way I see it - Rahal left at the 11th hour. For whatever reasons - implied, written or rumored, he took the money and left, knowing full well what the ramifications of leaving could be. When the full court press (TG, IRL, Honda) began, he got trapped at half court and turned the ball over. Using that anology, the fans of CCWS have every right to boo him like they would any other athlete that went to another team after saying during free agency that they were not going to leave. Let us not forget it is sport.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by racinthestreets
Tim, it is obvious how you fell about Rahal. That is great. Jeff did say it the way I see it - Rahal left at the 11th hour. For whatever reasons - implied, written or rumored, he took the money and left, knowing full well what the ramifications of leaving could be. When the full court press (TG, IRL, Honda) began, he got trapped at half court and turned the ball over. Using that anology, the fans of CCWS have every right to boo him like they would any other athlete that went to another team after saying during free agency that they were not going to leave. Let us not forget it is sport.

I don't necessarily have a probelm with booing him if they don't like him now...because he left....

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion....

But I do have a problem with people calling him a liar, a traitor, or the Enemy....IMO, I just don't think that a guy who has given so much to the sport, and to Champ Cars (he even sered as an interim head of the Series foo crying out loud) should be referred to in such awful terms...I just don't think that he deserves it....

In a story I read over the weekend, apparently Fernandez was not happy with what he allegedly felt was a "conflict of interest" among the "owners" of the series who are also "race team owners" grabbing up drivers like Lavin and their sponsor money when other teams that are not as well-heeled have been able to land such drivers in previous years....

Both Rahal and Fernandez also stated upon leaving that another reason for their departure was that they were (in Rahal's words, but not Adrian's exact words) "underwhelmed" by the proceedings as they unfolded at Long Beach a month ago at the unveiling and were quite unsure at that time whether or not OWRS would in fact get things pulled together in time to go racing at Long Beach a month later....

Two Final Notes:

1. Rahal has Danica Patrick in the Toyota Atlantic Series for one reason...it is the best, most competitive, and most viable "stepping-stone" open-wheeled feeder series available to him to develop the talents of a driver that he sees as a possible investment in the future of his team and his business...

Thus, it too has ZERO to do with "Loyalty" and everything to do with "Business", and...

2. I'm glad that the prospects look good for more cars and teams to come racing in the OWRS...including Hemelgarn.....and I look forward to watching them compete when they do join the Series and take to the track....

[cartpix]

Tim,

I'm not calling any of them traitors. I, like you, watch the IRL. I don't like Tony George or his "bringing a hammer" attitude. If he spent half the effort, promoting his own series, that he does, trying to kill Champ Car, his series would be better off.

As for Cosworth building an IRL engine, this is true. They tooled, built, & tested it for CART, when they were trying to align the two series, again, with similar engine & chassis specs. TG burned the olive branch one more time, with his, IRL exclusive chassis rule.

Honda & Toyota, also were developing 3.5 liter NA engines. Unfortunately, CART was the one that initiated the engine manufacturers move, to the IRL. A bit ironic, as was Chevy going to bed with Ford (Cosworth), to get an engine, to compete with H & T.

The Rahal statements, you quoted, was the post defection back pedeling. This was after he left & Michel & Gigante stayed. He had to say that, to save face.

Then there was the irresponsible journalism, after the Long Beach launch. The doom & gloom on TV, radio, print & Internet. I had the same schedule that Robin Miller, et. al. had, a week before the launch. It spelled out how many teams were going to be there. I wasn't expecting 18 cars & drivers to be announced, why did they? After all, they only had 6 weeks, from taking possession of the series, to get it together

After the launch, there was a negative aura, surrounding Champ Car. When Bobby & Adrian left, it became worse. How anyone could secure sponsorship, after that, is beyond me.

I'm glad there is 18 cars. I'm glad they pulled off the first race. I'm glad there's more teams, waiting in the wings.

Jeff

[Tim Northcutt]

Thanks, Jeff....

I thought I read the Rahal quotes right after I returned from Sebring (a few days after his announcement)...I thought it was in the March 18 or 19 editions of the Indy Star...whach was about the time that he announced his intentions, wasn't it???

And I do agree with your comments on TG...his time and efforts would be better spent dealing with the sand in his own sandbox as opposed to trying to get more sand from the other one....

[racinthestreets]

I don't necessarily have a probelm with booing him if they don't like him now...because he left....

Hey Tim: You bring up very good points. I think it very ironic that his business decision to keep the employment of "65" people could have unemployed many, many more if the move had the effect that Honda and TG envisioned. Also, it is ironic that the sponsor and driver that he made this decision for, Gigante and MJ, may be the reason that many, many more are not unemployed today. I watch the IRL too if I have no other schedule, but I schedule my day to watch the CCWS if I am not at the race.

One last note Tim, if Bobby came back to CCWS in the future I would salute the decision

[Tim Northcutt]

Thanks, racininthestreets...

You make good points on that issue....

I also appreciate your candor...

[zerO]

UPDATE:

Latest from the Grapevine is that Gaston Mazzacane will most definitely be on the grid at Monterrey... the little twist here is that the Emmo thingy is cold again and "The Mullet" may wind up in Walker's second car should Emerson Fittipaldi decide to join forces with Derrick Walker...

Here's how the line-up scenario looks like now:

1. FORSYTHE - #1 - Paul Tracy
2. FORSYTHE - #3 - Rodofo Lavin
3. FORSYTHE - #7 - Patrick Carpentier
4. NEWMAN/HAAS - #2 - Sebastien Bourdais
5. NEWMAN/HAAS - #6 - Bruno Junqueira
6. WALKER - #5 - Mario Haberfeld
7. WALKER - #15 - Rafael Martinez or Luis Diaz or Gaston Mazzacane
8. HERDEZ - #4 - Ryan Hunter-Reay
9. HERDEZ - #55 - Mario Dominguez
10. COYNE - #11 - Oriol Servia
11. COYNE - #19 - Tarso Marques, Jaime Melo and/or Tomas Enge
12. KALKHOVEN - #12 - Jimmy Vasser
13. KALKHOVEN - #21 - Roberto Gonzalez
14. GENTILOZZI - #8 - Alex Tagliani
15. GENTILOZZI - #17 - Nelson Philippe
16. RUSSO - #9 - Michel Jourdain
17. RUSSO - #10 - AJ Allmendinger
18. BACHELART - #14 - Alex Sperafico
19. BACHELART - #34 - Justin Wilson
20. FITTIPALDI - #20 - Gaston Mazzacane or Ricardo Sperafico or Christian Fittipaldi

Possibles:

21. KALKHOVEN - #22 - Josh Hunt, Christian Murchison and/or Townsend Bell
22. HEMELGARN - #18 - Michael Valiante or Townsend Bell or Richie Hearn

btw, for the updated picturesque version go to www.champcarfan.com and click on the "Line-up" thingy ?!

zerO

[Tim Northcutt]

I thought Emmo had extensive business holdings in Brazil...big citrus groves, etc....

What's the deal with him????

If you want to own a race team, you'll probably have to spend a little of your own money to do it....

Other than a possible deal between Emmo and Walker, why would derrick want to put "the Mullet" in the car, when Diaz would be someone that Champ Car fans have seen, and he has shown he can drive????

[zerO]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
I thought Emmo had extensive business holdings in Brazil...big citrus groves, etc....

What's the deal with him????

If you want to own a race team, you'll probably have to spend a little of your own money to do it....

Other than a possible deal between Emmo and Walker, why would derrick want to put "the Mullet" in the car, when Diaz would be someone that Champ Car fans have seen, and he has shown he can drive????

Emmo wants to get Champcars back to Brazil and also Argentina - this is his primary mission lately... "the Mullet" is part of the Argentine package - very little to do with driving ability and a lot to do with $$$ which Emmo is still lacking in order for him to field his own team... maybe he'll hit lotto within the next few weeks and this saga will come to a nice resolve...

zerO

[Muzza]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
I thought Emmo had extensive business holdings in Brazil...big citrus groves, etc....

What's the deal with him????

If you want to own a race team, you'll probably have to spend a little of your own money to do it....

Other than a possible deal between Emmo and Walker, why would derrick want to put "the Mullet" in the car, when Diaz would be someone that Champ Car fans have seen, and he has shown he can drive????

About four weeks ago there was a rather tense discussion between Emerson and Gentilozzi (I don't know if Kalkhoven was involved). Gentilozzi was pushing Emerson to field a car, but the Brazilian replied that he would only create a team (manage was the word used, I understand) if it would be self-sustainable (my wording). This discussion got a little hot, I understand.

Hence I was quite pleased to see Emerson at Long Beach - it indicates that there was no complete rupture between him and the new Champ Car owners.

[drewdawg727]

what drivers did hemelgarn have in IRL last year?
drawing a blank..

[JohnSSC]

Thanks to all who posted a positive note in response to my posts.

I think the problem with Emmo is that he once ran an F1 Team as a an owner-driver, the late, unlamented "Copersucar" if memory serves. I think it (the experience) is what caused him to retire the first time. My recollection is that Emmo was severely toasted by the experience and if so, I cannot blame him for wanting to field a Team that is "self-sustaining."

[zerO]

UPDATE:

Latest from the Grapevine is that we might see a Korean driver in a one-off from PKV (third car) at the Seoul race: SEUNG YIN LEE ?! (of Formula Renault V6)

Here's how the line-up scenario looks like now:

1. FORSYTHE - #1 - Paul Tracy
2. FORSYTHE - #3 - Rodofo Lavin
3. FORSYTHE - #7 - Patrick Carpentier
4. NEWMAN/HAAS - #2 - Sebastien Bourdais
5. NEWMAN/HAAS - #6 - Bruno Junqueira
6. WALKER - #5 - Mario Haberfeld
7. WALKER - #15 - Rafael Martinez or Luis Diaz or Gaston Mazzacane
8. HERDEZ - #4 - Ryan Hunter-Reay
9. HERDEZ - #55 - Mario Dominguez
10. COYNE - #11 - Oriol Servia
11. COYNE - #19 - Tarso Marques, Jaime Melo and/or Tomas Enge
12. KALKHOVEN - #12 - Jimmy Vasser
13. KALKHOVEN - #21 - Roberto Gonzalez
14. GENTILOZZI - #8 - Alex Tagliani
15. GENTILOZZI - #17 - Nelson Philippe
16. RUSSO - #9 - Michel Jourdain
17. RUSSO - #10 - AJ Allmendinger
18. BACHELART - #14 - Alex Sperafico
19. BACHELART - #34 - Justin Wilson
20. FITTIPALDI - #20 - Gaston Mazzacane or Ricardo Sperafico or Christian Fittipaldi

Possibles:

21. KALKHOVEN - #22 - Josh Hunt, Christian Murchison, Seung Yin Lee, Townsend Bell, Jaime Melo, and/or Michael Valiante
22. HEMELGARN - #18 - Michael Valiante or Townsend Bell or Richie Hearn

btw, for the updated picturesque version go to www.champcarfan.com and click on the "Line-up" thingy ?!

zerO

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by drewdawg727
what drivers did hemelgarn have in IRL last year?
drawing a blank..

Buddy Lazier

[Tim Northcutt]

Wasn't Buddy replaced by his brother Jacques late in the year...

[stmookeyj033]

Originally posted by zerO
UPDATE:

Latest from the Grapevine is that we might see a Korean driver in a one-off from PKV (third car) at the Seoul race: SEUNG YIN LEE ?! (of Formula Renault V6)

Anyway, I'll assume that means that the 3rd PKVR car is basically a rent a drive for locals in international races. Would that be a good assumption to make.

- I strongly suggest you think a little harder before hitting "Submit".
- macdaddy

[Superunknown]

owners are where they are to have a successful business entity as a team, it's up to series management to provide a promising and enticing avenue for these owners to field their teams.

and rahal's still a *)*@#$#@, but I've known that for some time now, so no surprise.