Unification Near?

[zerO]

Originally posted by rustyfan
Then again, if George hadn't been around, the Indianapolis 500 would have been "just another race" by now, or possibly even abandoned completely considering CART/OWRS take on ovals.

Well, you've gotten it all wrong, buddy... have you been reading the press lately ??? - The New York Times, Associated Press, Baltimore Sun, etc. - it is THANX to TG that the "Greatest Spectacle in Motorsports" has become "Just Another Race" !! - every single NASCAB race has better TV ratings than the Indy 500 ?!... time to take the blinders off, buddy...

zerO

[Down F0rce]

Actually, The Indy 500 had better ratings than the Coca Cola 600 on Sunday.

[zerO]

^ Not so, last I heard CC600 was above 4.0 and I500 was below 3.5 when it bled into "Prime Time" ?!

zerO

[Down F0rce]

NY Times had it at 4.7.

[mountainstar]

Unification was last on the agenda in December, and after the stunt TOny George pulled, unification will never be raised again. Nor should it be. Champcar needs to go it's own way and the irl needs to go it's way.

I feel like this is a dead horse we keep beating and for what? Let it go.

Unification is never going to happen unless there is compromise on BOTH sides. So far all I hear, especially from Penske, is that OWRS basically needs to hand over all the keys to the irl. I think not and I would never support it.

[mountainstar]

The final, accurate ratings will come out later this week

[Brian W Keske]

From the NY Times, Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/02/sp...partner=GOOGLE

The Indianapolis 500 defeated the Coca-Cola 600 in preliminary overnight Nielsen ratings, despite enduring lengthy rain delays Sunday. ABC's 4.7 rating for the Indy 500 fell from a 5.1 last year, but it edged out the 4.5 for Fox's Coca-Cola 600, which declined 8 percent from 2003.

Usually, the Indy 500 is over by the time the Coca-Cola 600 begins, but rain delays caused them to compete for two hours. In each half-hour segment from 3:30 to 5:30 p.m. Eastern, the Indy 500 won, ending with a 4.8 rating from 7 to 7:30, compared with a 4.0 for the Coca-Cola 600. Each overnight ratings point equals 754,274 television households.

Viewership did not plummet during the Indy 500's rain delays, which actually pushed it into a later time period with more viewership. The two rain-delay segments, the first from noon to 2 p.m. and the second from 2:45 to 4:30, rated a 3.6 and a 3.7.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by mountainstar
Unification was last on the agenda in December, and after the stunt TOny George pulled, unification will never be raised again. Nor should it be. Champcar needs to go it's own way and the irl needs to go it's way.

I feel like this is a dead horse we keep beating and for what? Let it go.

Unification is never going to happen unless there is compromise on BOTH sides. So far all I hear, especially from Penske, is that OWRS basically needs to hand over all the keys to the irl. I think not and I would never support it.

I support both series....and unification will have to come at some point...at least if one looks at both as a North American sport where they are rooted and founded...

but this IS like flogging a dead horse....

after last January, I don't see it happening any time soon...unless one series would out-and-out fail, with no one there to pick up the pieces the way OWRS came about when CART went under....

It will be many, many years before it could happen....

[racinthestreets]

If tres amigos are successful at mining the global market to full extent - unification is not in the future. IMO, provided that OWRS goes about the business of building this series as the envision, it would take the collapse of the IRL for any kind of unification.

Agree that this is a dead horse however, this horse sure drew a lot of posts in a short time - compared to what has been happening the past few weeks.:confused:

[Kicking-back]

If Champ Car and IRL carry on separately, you have two series that hardly anyone has any interest in.

If they unify properly, with say 16 races and a 50/50 split of ovals and road races, and everyone sings from the same songsheet, there might be a chance to turn the mess around.

[JohnSSC]

Speed TV's website and ESPN have both carried articles quoting Penske's desire to see the Series' reunited. He states (and I paraphrase) that essentially, both Series suffer as each is less than the former CART series was in it's heyday. I tend to agree.

Both Series' have trouble attracting sponsor and fan notice. Neither has a field that could be considered "solid" with plenty of assistance keeping teams afloat. Roger points this out in the articles and as he has been down the road before (remember he was one of the founding members of CART when it split from USAC) he understands quite well that ONE series needs to establish itself. It took CART several seasons to:
1) establish a separate identity from USAC - the first few seasons looked much like your basic USAC season: many ovals and only one or two road courses.
2) establish a clear preference for CART over USAC in the average fan's mind.
3) realize that Indy to the average fan was "the" race and part of the process was to maintain involvement in the 500 while developing their own "personna" if you will for CART.
4) capitalize on the cache that winning the 500 brought to the Series, the drivers and the teams.

Like it or not, the 500 is a very necessary element to the success of open wheel racing here. I would love to see champ-type cars at Spa, but face it, there needs to be a consolidation of both series in order to focus the casual fan's attention once again on open wheel racing here. A race at Spa won't do that. Another Indy 500 like we just had will. People will watch a superior product and, if that type of action could happen race-in and race-out with Top Teams/Drivers, then open wheel might just be able to carve itself a new niche in American motorsports.

[JohnSSC]

Just a thought, but much the same thread is running in the IRL Forum. What would the chances be of combining this and the "OWRS Continuation....poll" thread to generate a good, honest discussion like I have seen in both Forums on this subject?

[Dov]

From TSN.ca:

NASCAR continues to outpace Indy

TSN.ca Staff

6/3/2004
The decline in interest in the Indianapolis 500 continues.

National television figures released in the United States show an 11 percent decline in viewership over last year and for the third straight year, NASCAR's race in Charlotte pulled in more viewers.

The Indy 500, whose start was delayed two hours by rain and another 1:47, received a 4.1 rating on ABC, down from 4.6 last year. The race was eventually stopped 50 miles short of its full distance due to the wet weather.

Fox TV's coverage of the Coca-Cola 600, which was also hit by rain, drew a 5.0 rating. The rating is the percentage of all homes with televisions, whether or not they are in use.

[camcartfan]

This topic has been drummed up a million times. So tiring....

[Liz]

Why is it only the IRL people beating the Unification Drum, while the CCWS people are going about their business and NOT whining that maybe people would watch their races if they didn't have any alternative?

Shouldn't they be busy making their series successful so it would be chosen instead of the other series, instead of trying to assassinate the other series so people would be forced to watch them (they think)?

I'm just wondering.

[mountainstar]

The 4.1 rating is another sign the irl is heading for trouble. The problem they have now is:

A. They ticked off all of the folks who bought into the all oval, pro USAC, all american, local engines and chassis vision. Now that they realize that was a sham, they are jumping ship in anger.
B. They ticked off most of the CART fans over time with incidents like the Paul Tracy Indy 500 win, the sudden disruption at the bankruptcy hearing, the 1996 qualifying rule, etc.
C. Then you add in all the people who got sick of the bickering and walked off for good.

So, that doesn't leave you with much. One key element of business is not to tick off your customers and the irl has done a pretty good job of carving a path of destruction through open wheel racing in NA over the past 9 years.

Say what you will about them "greedy car owners" in CART back in the early 90's(some of whom now in the IRL by the way), but they were getting it done. I recently tore out an article from a 1994 On Track magazine that was all about how much of a threat CART was to Nascar. CART had a good tv package, ratings were good and they were making good money. NASCAR at that time only had 5 or 6 races on network tv with the rest scattered all over cable tv.

So I think all this rewriting of history about how bad CART was is doo-doo. Especially look at 1995, CART was on the right path. If there is going to be a unification, they will need to figure out what exactly they want to be and the "vision" shouldn't be changed every week.

[JohnSSC]

First, I don't think I have seen anyone re-writing anything about CART being bad. There is general agreement that neither Series is where CART was in the early '90's.

Second, even with the ratings slip for the 500, it still reaches many fans and it was an excellent race. OWRS is reaching almost no one on Spike.

Third, Penske may be saying it, but I am sure there are owners in OWRS and IRL who would like to see one series. I think both series have some strong selling points. If those could be maximized the combination would be very positive for open wheel racing - period.

Fourth, "changing vision" is an affliction that applies to OWRS/CART as well as the IRL. Neither series has been a model of consistency.

Fifth, if either Series has to rely on it's success by ensuring there is no "alternative" affecting viewership, then they are both in worse shape than I thought.

Penske is simply stating a truth: as currently configured, neither series can stand on it's own. There are not two NASCARs. Like them or not, they have stumbled upon a popular combination the casual fans seem to like. Having a second NASCAR would only dilute the product and divert interest. Which is exactly what has happened to open wheel racing.

[macdaddy]

From the FAQ's...
You will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing..."

Having said that, here's your thread back. The topic does deserve consideration, but I'd prefer it if no other posts need to be pulled outta here.

[JohnSSC]

macdaddy/mods:

Thank you for giving me and my fellow Forum memebers the opportunity to "put our money where our mouth is" by reopening this thread. I have stated numerous times my desire to have a less divided forum. Further I have also stated my willingness to play by the rules to foster good, honest, open discussion of the sport we all love.

This is off-topic I know, but I am asking everyone to think before they post, to follow the FAQs and if they find this thread really of no interest to simply ignore it.

Mods, I know this is not a decison made hastily or without thought (or care for your own peace of mind!).

Thank you for taking a chance on the rest of us!

Cheers,

John

[JohnSSC]

Back to the discussion!

As I posted elsewhere, the rumnor now floating about that has Haas coming to IRL is one I find interesting in that the result may strengthen Penske's hand.

Consider: Haas is the Lola distributor. He was snubbed by TG some time ago when he tried to get Lola involved in IRL. IF he comes over, then Penske can realistically "stare down" TG as he will then have the capability of saying: "We will now either set the terms and conditions for having one series or I will take the engine manufacturers, our own in-house chassis supplier, and start my own series.

I think that Roger pulls enough weight (with teams/engine manufacturers) that faced with no manufacturer support for his series, and eroded support within his family as the continuance of the 500 would be in danger, that TG would be forced to adjust his "philosophical differences." The Three Amigos would receive adequate remuneration for their services and we could get back to racing.

There is a chance of course that I am reading this incorrectly...

[macdaddy]

John...
Penske ain't about to start his own series. He's got alot of clout, but he doesn't have the Speedway or any of the OWRS tracks. Without the creme venues, he'd have no engines.

But he's up to something. I've been pretty certain of this since around the time of The Launch, actually. Penske is a man of well-chosen words. And that's why the very fact that he submitted that article to the NYTimes in the first place strikes me as being a significant clue.

I really don't think that we've heard the last of this. Mutiny is in the air, so-to-speak. Mark my words. Whether or not anything comes of it, only time will tell.

And I really don't think that Mario is playing a part much bigger than that of "liason", if he's playing any part at all. (Of course, the future may prove that to be a leading role).

The active word there is "future"...

In the meantime, I'm very much looking forward to Portland!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
Back to the discussion!

As I posted elsewhere, the rumnor now floating about that has Haas coming to IRL is one I find interesting in that the result may strengthen Penske's hand.

Consider: Haas is the Lola distributor. He was snubbed by TG some time ago when he tried to get Lola involved in IRL. IF he comes over, then Penske can realistically "stare down" TG as he will then have the capability of saying: "We will now either set the terms and conditions for having one series or I will take the engine manufacturers, our own in-house chassis supplier, and start my own series.

I think that Roger pulls enough weight (with teams/engine manufacturers) that faced with no manufacturer support for his series, and eroded support within his family as the continuance of the 500 would be in danger, that TG would be forced to adjust his "philosophical differences." The Three Amigos would receive adequate remuneration for their services and we could get back to racing.

There is a chance of course that I am reading this incorrectly...

John:
You forget that when Penske & Co. pulled this stunt on USAC, A-The USAC board had been killed so Penske knew that chaous was running USAC at that time, plus B-Ontario was still around and if he could, and did, get the California 500, he would, and did, have the other major 500 to use as an ace.

If the engine manuf. left, Tony can simply go to a race-stock formula. I am sure Chrysler would love a chance to win the Indy 500 with a version of the new Hemi. He would have no problems getting engines.
Since the death of Ontario, POCONO telling CART to go away and stay away, and the failure, partly by an act of God, of the U.S. 500, Penske has no wild card to play.
Penske can, once there is only one series, probably through his talent help George set-up a schedule that is reminiscent of the best of USAC and CART.
Bob

[Cowboy]

I haven't made a lot of posts here but I have been reading them for a long time and I must say that I hope that there never is a unification between the 2 series. I have absolutely no desire to watch the other series, I never even watched the Indy 500. To some that may make me not a true race fan, that is their opinion. I beleive that they both can survive if Champ Car continues to source foreign markets. The other series can continue to turn left, even when or if they throw a couple of road courses to mimmic Nascar, but I still won't care to watch them.

[macdaddy]

If you've never watched Indy, am I to suppose that you've only been a CART fan for a relatively short while? IMO, CART was at its best when there was a decent spattering of ovals. I respect and understand your opinion, though.

[gttouring]

Mario hmm- what is his interst to get the series united?
Michael is doing fine
so is it that he wants it united for the love of the Sport? and roger, what does he need to prove anymore?
well he could want to win the series title again with all the players trying to take down the mighty Penske Organization, he would probably enjoy it more so...