Speed News: New Effort to Unify the Indy Racing League and Champ Car (Merged AGAIN)

[JohnSSC]

There does not need to be the presence of an "American" engine manufacturer for Indy to be successful. For a long, long time the Offenhauser powered the majority of cars there. People got excited about the racing - not the powerplant.

I was a bit surprised to see little comment on the boards regarding Mario being on Windtunnel recently. He expanded on his idea of a common formula with two Series acting as "conferences." One thing that was abundantly clear is that he is extremely frustrated with the state of things right now and probably is one of the few (including Penske) who clearly see that this is not workling for anyone right now.

My interpretation of "Gerry" and KK's response to TG's offer was that TG just did not bring a big enough check. Really, why would they be trying to "protect" races in the Far East when they haven't even happened yet?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

My interpretation of "Gerry" and KK's response to TG's offer was that TG just did not bring a big enough check.

Couldn't disagree more. I dont think KK and Forsythe are going to sell out, I think watching their work over the last year and a half would be evidence enough. They are trying protect Champ Car and its interests, whats its about not protecting a few os races. I believe they are waiting for a Fair and balanced deal, that hasn't come yet.

[rustyfan]

Reading the SpeedTV article more closely, I find it rather interesting that no one has mentioned the fact that Dick Eidswick was the one who called Tony George.

And the obvious follow-up question to that is: did he just "happen" to do that completely on his own, or was he instructed to do so...?

[D.R.T.]

I would find it very hard to imagine that under the current CCWS management structure, that Eidswick would do anything of his own accord.

What could have happened is that an approach was made via Penske, Andretti and (after KK, GF were treated with the use of Tony's representitive in past discussions) they thought they would Tony a taste of his own. Or they just weren't available.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Reading the SpeedTV article more closely, I find it rather interesting that no one has mentioned the fact that Dick Eidswick was the one who called Tony George.

And the obvious follow-up question to that is: did he just "happen" to do that completely on his own, or was he instructed to do so...?

Appparently, Mario talked to TG, and then Mario immediately went to Eidswick and told him, you need to call TG right away, and he did. At least thats how Robin Miller said it went down.

Maybe TG can work through Eidswick to get a deal done, or at least get something going, because it's obvious that a deal won't be made with TG and the 3 Amigos directly. To much bad blood there. I'd actually feel better if TG let Brian Barnhart deal with Eidswick actually. He's a much less polarizing figure for the IRL side...

[indycool]

On Wind Tunnel last night, RM said he was convinced that TG did NOT try to buy out OWRS. TG denied that in RM's story.

Realistically, OWRS' price would be way too high for that to even be considered. They've sunk millions into it and would want to regain those dollars, but the series itself doesn't follow what TG wants to do. He only bid on three races at the bankruptcy auction and probably would only want that many of OWRS' current schedule. There are no more real assets there than there was before.

Whatever, the merger discussions always seem to start with CART/OWRS and always seem to come just before the month of May, with the exception of Penske's initiative last year in June. These guys "negotiating" a merger, if that's the right word, through the press contacts of a paid OWRS staffer like Miller is not a very good move, IMO. Andretti, either...and his concept is so convoluted that I'm even confused exactly what it is other than common specs.

[codename_47]

No, this started with Mario Andretti, and if it had been anyone else egging Dick Edswick on, I doubt the call would have been made...

Last time it was a waste of gas, this time a waste of phonebill, I guess

I like this quote from KK though:

Asked about how long he and Forsythe are willing to spend millions of their own dollars to keep Champ Car afloat, Kalkhoven responded: "The amount of money we're spending is very little overall and I can afford to run this thing forever."

[jock25]

Originally Posted by indycool

but the series (CCWS) itself doesn't follow what TG wants to do.

But does anyone actually know what TG wants to do? It has been said before but each side has effectively morphed into the other in their previous guise - Champ Car is now an open-wheel series with spec engines and chassi, a strong cost control ethos and a whole host of teams no-one has ever heard of turning up and staking a (reasonable) claim to win races. It is also trying to maintain the historic links between single-seater racing and road racing in North America.

Meanwhile...the IRL has become a manufacturer dominanted, cosmopolitan, international, extremely expensive racing series that combines a mixture of road, oval and street racing and in its fudged attempts to apease various engine manufacturers may well leave itself with no engines and (potentially) a large number of its teams defecting to rival series...

[Snrub]

I think the joint races concept is a great one. Isn't TG's main concern keeping Indy strong? This would strengthen Indy. Theoretically it should strengthen interest in both series. Common equipment might also reduce costs. Recall the different wing configurations CC has used with its cars (at least 2 different road/street wings, superspeedway, handford device). It's obvious that both series could do what they want and still have a compatable car for Indy. The IRL has also mandated wing angles, so even that puts a different spin on a package.

In the SpeedTV article TG says First of all, if we still have two separate series and we come together for a few races one of the challenges is how do we as individuals, teams and a business, go out and sell sponsorship? We can't spin that to look like one and nobody is going to be any more interested in supporting a fragmented group.

What is the situation right now? Fragmented. I find this kind of statement really odd. Even if you're only 5% interested in such a proposal, why would you blow it off so definately? I get the impression that TG would rather win/control something that isn't worth winning than make even the slightest compromise. I don't understand why both parties wouldn't be interested in doing this?

I agree with John that having Ford involvement isn't that crutial to the IRL/Indy. It was suggested in an article that Ford would be paying $10M this year for branding and title sponsor rights. Given the late date of the Ford announcement, it the real figure lower than that? $10M isn't going to get TG all anxious.

I think Cosworth is usefull, but it's not a pivitol peice. As was discussed last fall, someone else could build the engines.

Perhaps if Ganassi leaves with Toyota THIS season, it will give someone like Penske some impitous to have a bit of an owners revolt in the IRL. Perhaps these guys can pressure TG to at least consider running joint equipment so the CC teams can run the Indy 500.

[indycool]

jock25, I find your post a bit inaccurate. CCWS is trying to maintain a North American continuity, by canning Laguna and Elkhart and globetrotting to Korea and China and maybe Japan?

The IRL is going "international" with one (1) race at Motegi and is blanketing the world with one (1) street race and two (2) road courses?

And BTW, Miller said on SpeedNews that he talked to Ganassi and Ganassi has no intention of leaving the IRL.

[jock25]

Indycool...
I was simply making the point (badly obviously) that both sides seemed to have switched in opposite directions and "what TG wants" appears to have changed wildly since the inception of the IRL.

Why did TG chase after Honda and Toyota if this series was suppose to be about 'American' racing? Why did he agree to the series taking in three road courses this season (with a view to more in the future) if this is supposed to be "all-oval"? Why did he cave to the demands of Honda to have a race at Motegi if this is not an international series?

Did anyone consider that Champ Cars was going international with that "one-off" race at Surfers Paradise way back in 1991? You only need 1 race outside the US to become inter-national.

And with reference to Champ Cars keeping American heritage by canning Laguna etc it was clear when OWRS bought over Champ Cars they wanted to keep turning left and keep a link to that history - if it was up to the IRL we would all be turning rig...oops!

[Amar7605]

Regardless, I think that Tony George is seeing that long-term the IRL is on very shaky ground, and I have learned that when defeat is inevetable it is when the loser wants to compromise.

I am not trying to be faceitious or anything, but if everything is going well with the IRL then why make an attempt to talk to CC about some sort of proposal?

I want a merger, but at the same time I hope that CC realizes that all of a sudden they hold the cards and is in a position to dictate terms of a merger.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

Regardless, I think that Tony George is seeing that long-term the IRL is on very shaky ground, and I have learned that when defeat is inevetable it is when the loser wants to compromise.

As long as the Brickyard 400 and the US GP keep bringing in the green, there will be a series, in some shape or form, to support the Indianapolis 500.

[Amar7605]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

As long as the Brickyard 400 and the US GP keep bringing in the green, there will be a series, in some shape or form, to support the Indianapolis 500.

Well if that's the case, then why bother having a whole racing series that is suppossedly a burden to TG?

[Tailwind]

I thought this horse was dead. Then again I've thought that a couple of times. In the end there will either be one serise as we know them now or they will have evolved into series that are nothing like each other. My loyalties and faith are cast with GF and KK. Ten years ago I would not have believed that this divide would have continued on this long. Obviously the heads in both series are very effective businessmen. One thing of note, conventional business rules don't strickly apply to running a race series. The leaders have to have a passion for the sport or they will make decisions based on the return on investment instead of what the series needs. I'd say from what I have seen that KK and GF are in this for the long hual and are not just looking for the right deal before they sell.

I love Champ Cars and my perspective is colored by my emotions but I believe the guys running the show will make the series grow and thrive.

[gttouring]

i said this in the IRL forum
"do not poo poo unification talks... the whole reason these things have happened for about ten years since the split is because nobody truly believes 2 of the basically same series can exist together, everyone sees it as a problem and everyone want a solution that best fits themselves. If CC goes more asian-pacific so will IRL it has Motegi after all. they need to be in the same place as it was and still is/ certtainly can be the openwheel king superseries on the planet, not for sheer technology standpoint or goofy rules like F1 now adays but for incredible racing and cars strong enough to take a bump or two against a wall or other cars, and where the driver certainly must handle the car. the closer spec formula that these series hold surely helps this feature but everyone wants one mighty superseries, say what you will about TG and the 3 but we all think back to the "good ole days" and not the 60's or seventies but a mere 10 years ago... this is not what we want? All eprsonal feeling about these meat heads running the series aside, it is better with the one and EVERYBODY knows it, and after seeing the racing in LBGP and Fontana and Indy and Texas and Laguna and Denver, the world can realize it...but they knew and believed it ask Mansell.
the collective forces of the 2 existing series can likely make headway into Nascar country again, and globally...really it is the American way for an American-based series, United we stand- divided we fall. ahem or get squashed by Nascar..."

[Kicking-back]

Exactly.

Everyone needs to be on the same side.

Pre-split, it was the same product that made us all fans.

[BootsOntheSide]

According to FIA rules, you need to race in 3 continents to be an international series. ChampCars thus didn't become one until after the split, and isn't one anymore, and the IRL never has been. Surfer's in 1991 was a massive success, amd no smart business would fail to turn up again after such a result. I don't think even the most US-purist viewer has a problem with this race.

Also, Tony George NEVER said the IRL was to be a purely oval-only series - that was the route taken initially because it made the cars cheaper, adn was easier to find suitable venues. Now, factor in the availablility of 2 popular NASCAR tracks (open-wheel racing has to work alongside NASCAR one way or another - it would be good for ALL US OW fans in those races at Sonoma and the Glen are more exciting than the NASCAR equivalent), and ChampCars' failure to convince St. Pete's that they represented the right choice, and TG has made a reasonable decision to expand the championship, without losing an existing markets or races (and those last few words are crucial).

With the benefit of hindsight, mistakes were made by CART in the early 90s, alongside the inescapable rise of NASCAR, and evenw ithout the split I doubt the combined series would be as strong now as it was then. In particular it frustrates me that so little significance is seen in the way Jeff Gordon was ignored by the top teams in favour of overseas drivers. On this point, history is perhaps repeating itself, although at least Rahal has 2 US drivers, AGR has 1, and Penske has 1.

I think rustyfan's point above was that, if TG feels that having a series built around the Indy500 is the best way to boost the race, he has the finances to do that by propping it up himself (much like the Amigos). While ChampCars retains its obsession with overseas races, overeseas drivers and street circuits, I can udnerstand why he doubts where a united series would do this. Engine supply issues can be resolved in a number of different ways, and I guess unification is one of a number of options.

[Snips1]

Originally Posted by StickShift

~~~ Sorry, there is incredibly little news on this at the moment, so bare with me ~~~

This was just reported as 'breaking news' on the road-racing edition of Speed News. I'm waiting for it to come up on the Speed website.

Robin Miller described the situation like this:

• Tony George met with CCWS president Dick Eidswick over the past week.
• Robin reported that Dick Eiswick told Kevin Kalkhoven that Tony George practically offered to buy the series.
• When Robin Miller talked to Tony George, George did not deny that he talked to Eidswick, but he did deny that he made an offer to buy the series.
• Tony George has not talked to either Forsythe or Kalkhoven since they bought the series. But suggested if they did, 'things could happen'.
• Kalkhoven, Forsythe, and Gentilozzi in general would be fine if George was a partner, but not if he was in direct control of the sport.
• Mario Andretti has been trying to convince both the IRL and Champ Car to go to a common chassis and engine formula.
• Robin also believes that what he knows at this point is "just the tip of the iceberg".

There will probably be more news on this on Windtunnel tonight, or on the Speed website.

I hope this story holds some water. But realistically, I expect as this story develops, it will spring leaks like a sieve.

As a true OW fan I say, do it for christ sake!!!!!!!!!!

[Jordi]

Here is what I have to say:

I want:

-the best cars and engines
-the best drivers
-the best tracks
-the best teams

all in one series. Is it that hard to do so, gentlemen? Is it so difficult to be the thriving pre-1996 PPG IndyCar Championsip again?

It's that simple.

[mac]

I don't like Mario's "conference" idea at all.

But at least it may have sparked positive talks.

I think that all we know is that no one really knows what is going on in communications between IRL and CCWS. But at least there appears to have been something.

[Xpunk75]

Well I don't know what is going to happen but I think that alot of people think that the two series can go on forever existing together in the US rivaling each other but the truth is it won't. Something is going to happen in the next 5 years and I don't know what, but something is going happen and there will only be 1 series and Indy Car or Champ Cars or whatever you want to call them will finally get all its fan base back. Maybe both series will die and a new American Open Wheel racing series will open up who knows. But if I had to look at it now I'd say Champ Car are holding most of the Marbles at the moment in terms of Costs, Engines, and Fans showing up at Tracks, Of course IRL now might have Long Beach but thats all they have at the moment besides Indy 500. There losing Chevy, Honda, and Toyota, and im not going to watch ZTech IRL racing Cars when i can Watch an internation Olympic style of racing in A1 which is going to be using the same or simliar ZTech engines to race with in a series which will have alot more competition and will interest everyone in the word and will inspire patriotic americans to get behind thier racing team that will Represent there country.

In other words I could care less if they Merge or one them just dies out. I just want one series and my Vote goes to Champ Car at the moment.

[Snrub]

I don't see either side as holding a huge advantage.

For those who don't think the starting off with some or just one joint races is a good idea, could you explain why? To me it seems there's never been anything close to unification because the bar is set too high. If it's lowered then maybe there's a chance. Perhaps I'm missing something that you are seeing?

As for Ganassi leaving the IRL, didn't he deny that he would be leaving CC after 2002 or was that just Pook?

As for the international thing, last time I checked the FIA didn't sanction either series. Granted, one race abroad hardly is worth critisizing the IRL over when the reasoning for the race is obvious.

[Amar7605]

Originally Posted by Jordi

Here is what I have to say:

I want:

-the best cars and engines
-the best drivers
-the best tracks
-the best teams

all in one series. Is it that hard to do so, gentlemen? Is it so difficult to be the thriving pre-1996 PPG IndyCar Championsip again?

It's that simple.

Hear Hear, Jordi!

Unfortunately, when pride gets in the mix, nothing good comes out of it.

[trout]

Originally Posted by Snrub

For those who don't think the starting off with some or just one joint races is a good idea, could you explain why? To me it seems there's never been anything close to unification because the bar is set too high. If it's lowered then maybe there's a chance. Perhaps I'm missing something that you are seeing?

Agreed Snrub. I don't like the idea from a straight unification perspective, but two series that actually compete against each other once in a while is better than nothing. Plus we already have a rivalry. Give a me a reason to talk up the rivalry, or anyone for that matter, and you cannot help but increase the attention on both series and Open Wheel Racing. Anything but NASCAR!!