Speed News: New Effort to Unify the Indy Racing League and Champ Car (Merged AGAIN)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I
As for the international thing, last time I checked the FIA didn't sanction either series. Granted, one race abroad hardly is worth critisizing the IRL over when the reasoning for the race is obvious.

Actually in a way they do, but it's so complicated I wont bore you with it!

[macdaddy]

The reasoning behind the suggestion that the two series have only a few "combined" races is obvious. Both series have multi-year commitments to their current promoters. For example, it's not as if ChampCar can simply phone the people in Edmonton and tell them that it's suddenly a one-race deal because they're uniting with the IRL and chopping the schedules.

Unifying the schedules will take time. Unifying the future specs is where the window of opportunity is quickly closing, and if they're gonna do something they'll have to do it pretty soon.

But I really don't think that they will.

[Kicking-back]

Which would be a great shame.

Both series will end up as irrelevant and close to death, I fear.

[jock25]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

According to FIA rules, you need to race in 3 continents to be an international series. ChampCars thus didn't become one until after the split, and isn't one anymore, and the IRL never has been.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary both championships are international but that's getting off the point


As the owners of Cosworth KK and GF could really push a supply of engines to cover the (perhaps) inevitable loss of powerplants in the IRL. As I said before, the chance to get closer to a set of common specs would provide the right platform to move forward.

I would suggest that (assuming we can get to that stage) the emergence of a "super-series" of 3-5 races including Indy would allow over 4-5 years perhaps the new series to supersede the pre-existing ones. This is undoubtedly the best options since a straight merger has never worked.

I know TG has questioned whether either side could sell 'sponsorship' on this basis but there would still be common themes - the IRL teams would still be able to hunt sponsors on the basis of 'racing at Indy' and the CC teams could still make a case to North-American based companies with international ambitions who probably would love the opportunity for additional coverage at Indy.

Unless we wait until one of them goes bankrupt, this is the best option IMHO.

[JohnSSC]

As we have seen, contracts don't mean a heck of a lot in this business (or at least handshakes). Breaking some contracts in order to pare down the venues may be easier than you think.

It is the technical specs that will require the most thought to achieve this. And they have to. If they don't then all the contracts in the world will mean nothing if Series A or Series B no longer exist.

[N I Tram]

Initially the idea of running the two championships with simialr chassis and a few common races is a good one. Both championships probably have simialr visions for what their 2007 cars will be like anyway. I've always felt that unification is important as long as both championships have similar goals - really the IRL has targetted a mainly-US mainly-ovals lineup, while ChampCar is becoming very international. Perhaps there is now room for both, but only as niché championships - a united series could gain ground int eh next few years and eventually close the gap to NASCAR.

[indycool]

As RM wrote, both sides reported they "agreed to disagree." They're no longer closer to any type of merged series now than they were before Eidswick and George met. I really don't think they want to do business with each other. They might've met at Mario's behest and with Mario's ideas, but Mario's ideas don't fit the program for either series and a merger or unification or whatever you want to call it based on that would result in a lot more confusion in the marketplace than we have now. Is Hornish running here? No, that's where Tracy runs I think, er, maybe, well, er, I don't know.

[jock25]

For the 'floating' spectator, the situation is already confused so IMHO the benefits of pulling the IRL and CHamp Car closer outweighs any potential negatives. Yes there would be more confusion in the short term but very quickly the "super-series" combining 4-5 races from each championship would become a prominent championship.

Are you an Indycar fan? No I'm a Champ Car fan. I thought Champ Car was Indycar? No...Indycar is the IRL. What's the IRL? The IRL is Indycars...etc

Though it is a minor championship, the IROC doesn't seem to have any trouble promoting itself despite the presence of NASCAR, IRL, Champ Car, sprint car etc. drivers competing at a series of circuits with multiple allegiances to multiple championships.

[icemachine]

The Open Wheel Super Series

Sounds good to me, CC can run Ford badged Cosworths and IRL can run Chev badged Cosworths

It would be good to see 33 running at more than just 1 event. I'm thinking

Miami-Homestead
Indy
Road America
Mid-Ohio
Michigan

3 ovals, 2 road courses lots of Fans and high TV ratings

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by indycool

As RM wrote, both sides reported they "agreed to disagree." They're no longer closer to any type of merged series now than they were before Eidswick and George met. I really don't think they want to do business with each other. They might've met at Mario's behest and with Mario's ideas, but Mario's ideas don't fit the program for either series and a merger or unification or whatever you want to call it based on that would result in a lot more confusion in the marketplace than we have now. Is Hornish running here? No, that's where Tracy runs I think, er, maybe, well, er, I don't know.

Curt Cavin in the Indy Star wrote besically the same thing...and Brian Barnhart said there are many more hurdles to overcome than simply adopting the same equipment specs for both series...many philosophical differences that do not mesh....

Don't hold your breath on this one...because I don't think it is any closer now than it was last summer...or the summer before...or the one before that...

[Snrub]

I've heard that "philisophical" thing thrown around a bit now (including by TG), could someone explain how the cars couldn't be the same and the philosophy met with different wing changes?

[sgw2]

The philosophy is quite simple:

Save the Motegi race, which is really just for Honda (at their insistence), IRL is strictly US market focused.

CCWS/OWRS is Australian Kalkhoven's baby, and he is pushing the series Pacific rim, trying to add races in China, Japan, and other places in the Pacific to add to Asutralia and Korea. Effectively his vison is a sort of new Tasman series with wider range.

How do you resolve that?

[Kicking-back]

Well, in that case, and if the drift continues, the IRL will essentially be the new CART and ChampCar will be off doing something else!

[Tim Northcutt]

The Philosophy hang-up is:

TG wants to run the series....OWRS wants a partnership, with KK & GF as their key players in the troika....and others in OWRS probably don't want Tony in the mix at all....

That one probably will never be resolved...Tony doesn't want to govern by committee, and the OWRS side won't hand over the store, lock, stock and barrel to him....

[sgw2]

Tim,

What store in the same market? The only race OWRS has that TG wants is LBGP, and I suspect that wont be for much longer (why else not announce a CCWS extension already?). So what would he want?

I really think the Team Australia, addition of Korea, China and maybe Japan show where the focus of Kalkhoven is. Forsythe is the only reason to keep US/Canadian presense. If it weren't for KK's funding of them CCWS wouldn't have any US races. The Pacific races and Mexico City actually pay significant money for CCWS. The US races are basically money sinks. The drift is unstoppable.

As for Control, KK (and GF) want to run the show as promoters (witness SJ over LS) just as TG wants to. Each is staking out a different turf. No difference except who is the boss. (BTW I do like the toning down of the mutual hatred talk by both sides. That only hurt both series attendance and upset sponsors.)

Also what purpose is served by the unified formula anyway? Only that CCWS teams can race at Indy with the same equipment. But as NHR shows, if they get a sponsor, then they'll just buy IRL equipment.

That is pretty much how I see it. And why I think it is month of May BS we will probably hear once or twice more before it goes away for good.

[Tim Northcutt]

KK and GF both said Tony wanted to buy them out...they aren't interested in selling....

Tony doesn't want to share the power....and KK and GF would consider being partners...but not relinquishing the powwer to one guy...

I'm glad they are at least talking, too....but I just don't expect it to gain any traction....

[macdaddy]

"We need another hero."

David Phillips' Commentary

[Jordi]

Phillips is quite right in saying that Champ Cars' targeted market (Pacific Rim) will have to fight against F1, and the IRL maybe playing 2nd, 3rd and 4th fiddle to NASCAR's series.

I'd say they should join and revert to the Y2K CART format, that is, about 20 races, five outside North America (Surfers, Japan, China, Brazil, and Lausitz?) and the rest on a majority of road courses - since NASCAR races in ovals, let's race where NASCAR and F1 don't. It makes sense to me, at least. Otherwise, running on ovals where NASCAR fills the house only looks horribly bad. I would only maintain the historic/best venues (Indy, Milwaukee, Michigan, Fontana, rebuild Nazareth...) and take off the 1.5 mile clone ovals that ISC has grown everywhere.

But I don't have a bucketload of money to buy the two championships, sadly.

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by Jordi

Phillips is quite right in saying that Champ Cars' targeted market (Pacific Rim) will have to fight against F1, and the IRL maybe playing 2nd, 3rd and 4th fiddle to NASCAR's series.

I'd say they should join and revert to the Y2K CART format, that is, about 20 races, five outside North America (Surfers, Japan, China, Brazil, and Lausitz?) and the rest on a majority of road courses - since NASCAR races in ovals, let's race where NASCAR and F1 don't. It makes sense to me, at least. Otherwise, running on ovals where NASCAR fills the house only looks horribly bad. I would only maintain the historic/best venues (Indy, Milwaukee, Michigan, Fontana, rebuild Nazareth...) and take off the 1.5 mile clone ovals that ISC has grown everywhere.

But I don't have a bucketload of money to buy the two championships, sadly.

Well, just buy the IRL and then...

Erm, sorry...forgot, no inter series flaming....

Anyway, stuff China, run at Rockingham again (Brands wasn't really suited to Champcars).

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Hazard

Anyway, stuff China, run at Rockingham again (Brands wasn't really suited to Champcars).

The INDY (hyuck) Circuit wasn't no, the Gp layout however *sigh*

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by codename_47

the Gp layout however *sigh*

Couldn't agree more, although I'm probably one of the few who liked seeing the cars on the Indy circuit - for once they were racing at a proper road course, with great scenery, wonderful elevation changes and so on. Just a shame the on-track action wasn't there.

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by sgw2

IRL is strictly US market focused. CCWS/OWRS is Australian Kalkhoven's baby, and he is pushing the series Pacific rim, trying to add races in China, Japan, and other places in the Pacific to add to Asutralia and Korea. Effectively his vison is a sort of new Tasman series with wider range. How do you resolve that?

What store in the same market? The only race OWRS has that TG wants is LBGP, and I suspect that wont be for much longer (why else not announce a CCWS extension already?). So what would he want?

I really think the Team Australia, addition of Korea, China and maybe Japan show where the focus of Kalkhoven is. Forsythe is the only reason to keep US/Canadian presense. If it weren't for KK's funding of them CCWS wouldn't have any US races. The Pacific races and Mexico City actually pay significant money for CCWS. The US races are basically money sinks. The drift is unstoppable.

That's 3-4 races, CC will remain a US/North American based series. If it wasn't for Forsythe and KK's deep pockets the series wouldn't exist. If it wasn't for TG's deep pockets the IRL wouldn't exist. TG doesn't just want LB. He wouldn't just go away if he had it. Recall that during the bankrupcy hearings that he wanted TO. We know he recently negotiated with Montreal. Last year they moved in on Milwaukee. Essentially he wants any CC venue possible. CC needs money to keep it afloat, a few cash cows doens't doom the series to F1-Lite-For Asia status. Don't kid yourself, I see no reason why TG wouldn't run the 3 Canadian races and 2 Mexican races.

SJ over Laguna is because Laguna had a race attendance of 5000 last year! I don't think it's fair to read more into it than that.

Unified equipment would allow the CC teams with less financial resources to run at Indy, instead of just NH. Unified races would also allow both series to run at certain events that would be mutually benificial. Think about it, IRL sponsors would probably like to be @ LB. If IRL sponsors were @ LB because the series was running jointly with CC, then it's to everyone's benifit. (and vise versa) Promoters can't afford to pay a good sanctioning fee for a mediocre event, but a hugely successful event could mean sharing of a lucrative fee between the two series.

[indycool]

I do not believe TG has EVER wanted to buy them out, nor would he pay the price that OWRS would want to extract if a proposal was made. If he wanted to buy them out, he could've made a bid when the stock purchase offer was on the table in August of 2003. When he was contacted by Bear. Stearns on behalf of CART, he said "no." He only bid on three races at the CART bankruptcy auction. He's going a distinctly different direction than OWRS as Phillips' commentary points out.

Yes, he wants the IRL at Long Beach. He bid on that contract publicly at the auction. Do I think he'll buy it outright from DDE? No, not a chance. The asking price would be too much when you're not buying property and buying into a contract with the city of Long Beach that only has five years left to run and that could change as politics change. Remember the CART race in Rio? When the office of the mayor changed hands, the race ended and CART got stiffed.

These historic "olive branch" talks that mean nothing are getting far too much credibility....this time, put out by Robin Miller, a paid employee of CCWS, no less...and the boards are lighting up over it. IMO, they're farther apart now than they've EVER been. Not gonna come close to happening.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by indycool

Yes, he wants the IRL at Long Beach. He bid on that contract publicly at the auction. Do I think he'll buy it outright from DDE? No, not a chance. The asking price would be too much when you're not buying property and buying into a contract with the city of Long Beach that only has five years left to run and that could change as politics change. Remember the CART race in Rio? When the office of the mayor changed hands, the race ended and CART got stiffed.

It would be a major blow for CC and therefor maybe worth a little extra for TG. Not only would champcar lose one of the few profitable(?) events they have, it would also be the loss of their marque event and leave them with not so many interesting assets.
Imo it all depends on how much faith DDE has in champcar and it's owners. If they believe that kk & friends will keep investing in cc & show direct improvements i see no reason why they would want to team up with IRL (apart from the Toyota-connection).

[Amar7605]

I agree with Roninho. CC has had a long relationship with DDE and LB. If they race switched to the IRL then there is the possibility that the LBGP has to re-promote themselves. It may be a harder sell to convince people to see an IRL race than a CC race.

I look at Fontana and see that on average there were twice as many CC patrons than IRL patrons. So would people in the LA area be willing to see the IRL race? I am not so convinced.