Speed News: New Effort to Unify the Indy Racing League and Champ Car (Merged AGAIN)

[indycool]

Oh, mac, sure sponsors would like unification. Manufacturers would. Fans would. Everybody would. But the sponsors (Marlboro, etc.) who are around now want to market in a domestic-based series. The manufacturers want a domestic-based series because they have other elements for international stuff (Toyota and Honda in F1). OWRS wants to go places like Ansan and Beijing and Brazil and Argentina and South Africa. The IRL and its constituents don't.

[The Snout]

Indycool outlines correctly that the IRL's partners want a domestic based series. That seems to align with reports that the International legs are one of the bugs in unification.

The IRL has to look after it's own interests, which is to satisfy it's partners. On the other hand CCWS is trying to create it's series around a combination of International venues. The two do not mix. IRL has nothing gain out of a merger that has International venues and CCWS has nothing to gain out of remaining domestic. IRL has become the National Championship as per links described by Indycool, and CCWS should push forward with it's 4 wheeled version of WSBK, as I described, IMO.

[Xpunk75]

This is why people get headaches thinking about this whole mess that started 10 years ago. I had to pop 2 tylonel after reading all that. Everyone keeps saying stuff but no listens to the other person. One guy says neither side has anything to gain from a merge between the two series, the other guy says if the don't merge their both going to die out, and the other guy says it will benefit them both.

Everyone is making stats up and comming up with conspiracy theories, its really not that complicated. Both series are not doing well, and are considered by most Formula 1 team owners and drivers as no longer even a stepping stone to F1 or a step back for famous drivers no longer wanting to race the F1 scene like Nigel Mansel, Emerson Fitapaldie, and so on. Nasscar, dominates the US race fan population and the only fans who watch IRL and Champ Car are dedicated fans to that series who love open wheel racing.

I think both series have alot problems and I think if they Merge it benefit the owners cause they will actually make money and have alot more fans. If Champ Car thinks they can race around world like F1 their crazy. It cost alot of money which they don't have and IRL won't have any engine to race with after 2007. I think both sides are going to get real desprete in the next 2 years and might do something CRAZY like actually merge. Then again I could be completely wrong.

[gttouring]

everyone has everything to gain from a merge, the calendar might grow to rival nascar to be that huge ofcourse, but then with frozen development periods it could really go well.
the series be it IRL or Champcar or CART
was and is a US based/northamerican based international openwheel series which as has been mentioned drew the likes of Mansell, fittipaldi, andretti, and williams test bed and a great alternate career for someone who doesn't want to be a poster boy or cleaned by the f1 PR machine. Zanardi for the love of pete!, Montoya!
US open wheel is and certainly was some of the best around, now there are simply two divisions fighting largley over the same groupof fans, investors, sponsors, tracks, TV time, rival north american tube frame oval series, and the respawning of Sports cars and endurance racing,
a merger is bad for whom?
if the two halves don't come back together or if one simply doesn't just go away, then we have 2 series around like Formula SUperfund, GP2, renualt world series,
more feeders for talent who want to go to F1 bt do it in a rather lucrative fashion.
why can't US open wheel become
F Zero, and trump every one.

[macdaddy]

Kinda looks like a hard-to-follow copy-and-paste, but that was a pretty good post gttouring.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Xpunk75

It cost alot of money which they don't have and IRL won't have any engine to race with after 2007.

It's my understanding that they are considering using the same engines that Grand Am are using for their Daytona Prototypes. It's pretty hard to find a real negative with that idea.

[macdaddy]

And Penske just outright bought the related portion of Ilmor.

[macdaddy]

Some Milwaukee quotes, from Kirby's "Inside Track":

Carl Haas:

For a while there I thought it was going to happen. I think for a little while we all thought it could happen. But of course it's come apart again, just like always. And now, I agree with you, it's never going to happen. It's gotta be all on Tony's terms. That's the only way he wants it. That's the way it's always been.

Paul Tracy:

We've got to stop looking back at the way it used to be. We've got to look forward. They need to forget about talking to Tony George. It's just a waste of time. They need to be looking ahead and planning the future of the series without any thoughts of the Indy 500. As far as Champ Car should be concerned, that race is from the past.

[sgw2]

PT has the right perspective.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TS01/506050417

Steve Ballard's quote of Jimmy Vasser at Milwaukee shows that Kalkhoven was also asking way too much relative to his position.

Vasser knows his partner well enough to believe any agreement Kalkhoven would make with the IRL would have to be a true merger.

"The only way it can work is if it's 50-50 -- equal partners," he said.

Clearly neither side had was willing to give in enough for anything to happen. They simply went through the motions to tell those in their camp that they needed to satuisfy that they "really tried."

But alas the right result happened. Hopefully CCWS will listen to PT ... this time.

[Amar7605]

I agree with what PT says, and he is right in principle. CC needs to forget about reunification and move on.

Unfortunately, is that really the best business plan? On the other hand, I can't help but think that thoughts about reunification is based on short-term thinking. What series can dominate in the long term? And by that I mean looking at least a decade or two ahead.

To me, it seems like the momentum is with Champ Car. They are being attracted by venues from around the world, they have secured Long Beach (and possibly more in the future), and the fan base is more loyal. With poor attendance at many of their races, I cannot see the IRL surviving ten years down the road. And from a business point-of-view, if the IRL is being supported by the 3 races held at Indianapolis, then that is a bad sign.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

With poor attendance at many of their races, I cannot see the IRL surviving ten years down the road.

From what I know Texas, ChicagoLand, Kansas and Kentucky feature relatively decent crowds. Texas, for example, pretty much always sees crowds in the 80k-90k range, and this year they expect it to surpass the 100k mark.

Far from all races sport Phoenix-like crowds.

[Amar7605]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

From what I know Texas, ChicagoLand, Kansas and Kentucky feature relatively decent crowds. Texas, for example, pretty much always sees crowds in the 80k-90k range, and this year they expect it to surpass the 100k mark.

Far from all races sport Phoenix-like crowds.

The above races show good crowds because people who are paying for NASCAR tickets are also forced to get IRL tickets. So it's not like there are many people going to see and IRL race on their own at these venues.

[mountainstar]

Paul Tracy:

"We've got to stop looking back at the way it used to be. We've got to look forward. They need to forget about talking to Tony George. It's just a waste of time. They need to be looking ahead and planning the future of the series without any thoughts of the Indy 500. As far as Champ Car should be concerned, that race is from the past."

DITTO.

I can't see the point in discussing it much further until there is something concrete. We need to do our thing and the IRL needs to do theirs. Ultimately, all of the talk is just holding people back from moving forward.

[JohnSSC]

But, Amar7605 they choose to attend the race rather than skipping it. The fact that the purchases are linked at some of the tracks is not considered a detriment - it seems to be considered "value."

I do not believe (someone help me out here) that the tickets are packaged like this at each of the tracks mentioned.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

The above races show good crowds because people who are paying for NASCAR tickets are also forced to get IRL tickets. So it's not like there are many people going to see and IRL race on their own at these venues.

That happens at Kansas and Chicagoland....You buy the Season package...but the crowds are big there....and the IRL's cut of the revenue off those season tickets is the same as for a sellout, whether the stands are completely full or 80% full....both of those races are virtually impossible to buy single tickets to, unless you visit a scalper...at least you can't get them on-line...I tried last year...

BTW...the Indianaplis Motor Speedway (& TG) are part owners and partners in the Chicagoland venue...so they do even better than that off the season tix...

Texas has always been a big open-wheel racing fanbase....TMS tix are not tied to NASCAR tix....and their crowds have been in the 90,000 range consistently...you can buy Texas Single Tix...two friends of mine would go from Indy to BOTH Texas races when they competed there twice a season, and could buy on-line....

Kentucky Motor Speedway does NOT even host a NASCAR event...They have the Trucks, and a Busch race, but they are an independent track that sells all events on a single ticket basis....you can buy season tickets, but it is not necessary.....

The IRL Sells Kentucky Tix to the rafters....the place was jammed last year...I was there...I was surrounded by NASCAR and Busch fans who had no idea how good IRL racing action was...they asked me questions during the cautions and aftert the race wanted to know where, besides Indy, the IRL raced within driving distances they would travel...because they wanted to attend more races...

Just for the record...Nashville hosts the Trucks and Busch, but not Nextel Cup....their IRL race sells heavily, too...but you do not have to buy season tix to attend there, either...I have many friends who buy single tix to the Nashville race...it was a sellout last year...

So it may be true in a few events, but don't buy Robin Miller's mantra about the subject...it isn't true across the rest of their schedule

Is that hand you were looking for, John SCC

[Hazza]

And as much as I love OWRS dearly, thinking logically I can't seem to work out how having to buy the "Main event" to stop the opposition getting fair and sqaure is a good thing...


But I'd like to see both series become their own masters, and a viable ecconomy where you can have full fields for both series.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Hazza

And as much as I love OWRS dearly, thinking logically I can't seem to work out how having to buy the "Main event" to stop the opposition getting fair and sqaure is a good thing...


But I'd like to see both series become their own masters, and a viable ecconomy where you can have full fields for both series.

I will be the voice of doom here,(just viualize that short lived commercial where they cried DOOMED!) discounting Sprint Cars, the US has never been able to support to major open wheel classes for long.

Even the SCCA Formula A races were often an added attraction to another SCCA series.
Had USAC not abandoned road racing from 1971-1976, I doubt the Formula A series would have lasted as long as it did.

If TIRL uses more open engine formula like USAC had,(some say the engines used by GARRA, will be allowed set-up to IRL rules) that will be a boost as it will signal a return of variety.
IT will be even better if George lets any chassis that want to play, play.

But no matter what, ONLY ONE, US series will survive, but OWRS could gain big in South America if they do it correctly.

Bob
PS-I read on a thread about USAC's trip to Argentina about the S.A. cars that ran there for awhile, most interesting and worth checking out.
IF George wants a race South of our borders, that is a track he should consider.