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6 Jun 2005, 23:46 (Ref:1321943)
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#26 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 171
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The overnight ratings for Milwaukee were 0.8 with a 2 share, which means that 2% of the people who were actually watching TV at that time were watching the race.
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7 Jun 2005, 04:20 (Ref:1322041)
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#27 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,744
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Quote:
I have a tough time believing that Saturday is such a bad day to show stuff on TV. Normally Sunday has higher profile/quality programming and Saturday is program dead. I'm not sure why, if you have two days off, why would one be more likely to watch TV on one day opposed to the other. I realize that say 1/3 of American's are going to church on Sunday, but I'm not sure that most people take the full day of rest thing that seriously. |
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__________________
No Rotor, No Motor. |
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7 Jun 2005, 04:44 (Ref:1322050)
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#28 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,480
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Saturday is the day to get stuff done out at shops etc you couldn't during the week. At least it is down here.
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__________________
"All this amateur analysis leads nowhere and is insignificant......So you waste hours, days, months, years of your life for what end? A bit of one-upmanship on the internet?" - Wilton969 |
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7 Jun 2005, 13:59 (Ref:1322375)
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#29 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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Overnights will pick up portions of the top 10-20 markets distributed geaographically....
Final numbers usually come in lower, and the fact that a top 30 market like Cincinnati showed a telethon instead of the race won't help the bottom line... |
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__________________
Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
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4 Jul 2005, 02:24 (Ref:1346488)
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#30 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 51
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30,000 ABC .8 832,000 Homestead
8,300 ESPN .6 540,000 Phoenix 40,000 ESPN .4 360,000 St Pete 45,000 ESPN .5 450,000 Motegi 275,000 ABC 6.5 6,500,000 INDY (8.8 million last 15 minutes) 100,000 ESPN 1.0 1,300,000 Texas 50,000 ESPN .44 360,800 Richmond 80,000 ESPN .?? ???,??? Kansas 75,000 NBC .6 624,000 Long Beach 100,000 Speed .16 102,000 Monterrey 12,000 CBS 0.7 728,000 Milwaukee 25,000 CBS 0.4 416,000 Portland 25,000 CBS 0.9 920,000 Cleveland (will change with final ratings) NOTES: I wasnt going to track attendance and ratings this year, to many people beetch about them, but saw the basics at another forum and copied and pasted. Have added to it after every race. Any REAL numbers ya dont agree with,,, not the fake fluffy numbers from the series,,, NICELY post what you would change, and please include a justifiable reason for it,, please. BTW, I count individual rearends in seats, not season ticket holders that didnt show up,, or count a pitpass and grandstand seat as 2 people like is being done with "Tickets Issued." It's only the different people,, one time,, that attended a race!! If you want false numbers and lies go read the series and promoters and tv announcers attendance quotes. Kansas has seats for 81,and handful thousand. They were not 100% full,,, but the infield and backstretch motorhomes and hospitality and suites make up for the empties and puts the attendance at 80,000 people. I know Cleveland will get comments.... A decent poster at another forum had exact seating and stands of 18,000 something seats, I was emailed seat's and stands with 17,000 some odd seats. Pictures were looked at and counted. Add GA and Hospitality and suites and that brings it close to 25,000 people. And a few other well known CC fans that were there concured the 89,000 weekend and the 40,000 race day crowds were announced larger then they know the attendance to be. I am CONFIDENT that Cleveland had very close to 25,000 people on race day. Your mileage may vary.  Viewers from around the globe: Canada CC has bumped from 80,000 average viewers to 140,000 (close). Canada IRL has bumped from 50,000 average viewers to 125,000 (close) Take hockey away from Canada, motor sports goes up. Mexico CC used to have a million viewers, couple years ago and last year. This year from what I have read from a few posters (FWIW) is way way down. Mexico IRL,, I dont know. Havnt read much. Europe - Both seem to be down from already low numbers,, from what I read and hear. Brazil - No broadcast? |
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4 Jul 2005, 08:22 (Ref:1346599)
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#31 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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__________________
Oops |
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4 Jul 2005, 14:59 (Ref:1346931)
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#32 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,744
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Thanks for posting that list Electrocuted. It's interesting to see those numbers.
I'm willing to buy your aruement for Kansas, the grandstands looked like they were say 75% full. The Cleveland one I'm not so sure on. It takes some real gaul to announce a 90k weekend figure if the real number was half that. Surely all it would do would be to remove any credibility the series had in Cleveland. As for Monterrey, I believe they announced 112k or something. There's only 2 more network CC races this season, let's hope it gets higher. The Monterrey SpeedTV ratings are pretty brutal, so we may be in for a rough second half of the season. I suspect the Canadian CC ratings have little to do with interest and a lot to do with the timeslot. I imagine Canadian IRL ratings are up in part to Carpentier, but not solely for that reason. I don't know any international ratings, but Sweden was a 2.0 for Monterrey.  :
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__________________
No Rotor, No Motor. |
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4 Jul 2005, 17:03 (Ref:1347027)
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#33 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 489
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I'll buy the Cleveland numbers. I could never understand how the numbers seemed to add up in the past for this race. The number of grandstands just didn't seem to come any where close to the numbers announced in the years I was there.
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4 Jul 2005, 18:56 (Ref:1347098)
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#34 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 51
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Quote:
Let me be honest,,, I am not a "true hardcore" fan of the management of CC,,, and "some" of it's fans. I do like the teams and drivers,, and watch the races for the product. So please excuse me if I just post information in a polite manner,, in this good forum with good members,,, and lurk away again. I understand the question snrub,, how could the constantly high announced numbers be so far off?? CC counts "Tickets Issued." It goes like this......... 1 person buys 3 day grandstands/GA and 3 day paddock pass. 1 person X 2 "Tickets Issued" X 3 days = 6 Over a weekend, 1 person gets counted 6 times. CC counts the tickets they HAVE to give to people that live and work within city streets and airports as "Tickets Issued." LB "GUESS" as an example - 2,000 people live or work within the track. 2,000 X 3 days = 6,000 extra "Tickets Issued" if the person saw the race or not. CC counts track workers, officials, teams, series officials, ETC. X 3 days as "Tickets Issued." CART used to count 10,000 press passes as attendance,, for 3 days. When less then half were actually at the track. According to Autoweek,,, take it for what it's worth,,, CART counted 16,000 soldiers and security hired to stand outside the gates in Mexico as "attendance." For all 3 days the security was there for a total of 48,000. CC includes Thursday attendance at Surfers in the weekend total,, but,, CC doesnt have a car on the track on Thursday?? To answer the Cleveland question,, take those "Ticket's Issued" away, the airport personnel, teams, workers, press passes, counting pitpass as an additional person over 3 days,, and count the grandstand seats that has been done,,, thats the number of "true" attendance. Beleive it or not,, it is true and varified by quotes in the newspaper (19 grandstands),, there are only 40,000 grandstand seats at LB. Under 20,000 grandstand seats at Denver, with easily seen very little room for GA. All anyone has to do is look at ticket site vs the seating map. Notice that Denver has taken away stands this year. Along with the F1 track in Canada. SanJose will have seats for about 20,000 also. That's how the "disagreements" come about. People like me count fans and spectators IN the seats or GA walking around. CART/CC count's "Tickets Issued" which fluff up the numbers higher then they are. Take any numbers you want.... but dont beetch at me. I'm like Fox News,, I only deliver info. You decide. 
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5 Jul 2005, 15:06 (Ref:1347862)
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#35 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,744
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Are you sure that they count people SIX times instead of three? It's all astounding if true. I have to be honest, I'm a bit sceptical of that stuff. I'm not acusing you of lying, but I wonder if the information is a little off. I'll give you a little more credit than Fox news. If you were like them your "facts" would consist of spin, thus there would be no spin because there were no facts to distort.
If you're trying to bring in sponsors and they do a little research and find out that you grossly inflate your ticket sales by factors of two, why would you want to be apart of the series? It's common sense that no one would want to get involved in that type of situtation. Also, why did you quote LB @ 75k if you're saying there is only seating for 40k? Is it possible that the grandstands have different dimensions?
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__________________
No Rotor, No Motor. |
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5 Jul 2005, 16:43 (Ref:1347952)
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#36 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 489
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I suspect that CART/ChampCar are not the only ones who play a bit fast and loose with numbers. I don't think that IMS takes a turnstile count.
ALMS numbers are based on tickets in some fashion. Estimated attendance at Mosport has been a question for many years. I'm not talking just about ALMS either. Toronto started with 60,000 fans in 1986 and peaked in 2001 with just over 73,000. Not a really big change in the numbers especially in that other grandstands were added. So far this year sales are at 112 % of last years at the same time. The price was reduced 20%. |
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6 Jul 2005, 05:51 (Ref:1348485)
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#37 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 51
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Quote:
The best way to understand it,, is to never think "people" when talking attendance, always think "Tickets Issued." LB,, 40,000 seats,, 75,000 attendance???? Because I can't prove / show / discount / or count, the GA and hospitality and suites and such. So to be fair and balanced,, i HAVE to go with the most accurate numbers I can find. I dont look for the lowest CC number, I dont try to find the lowest CC number,, I dont try to come up with the lowest number I can make up or get away with,,,, I take press releases, photos of stands, ticket purchase vs seating maps, posts from posters on many boards,, weigh heavily on FACTS,, and post the most ACCURATE count of actual people at the track on race day I can. Some people accept them,, some dont... No skin off my back. I know they are within +/- a couple or few thousand people,, which is much closer then the announced Tickets Issued. I should quit before I wear out my welcome..... But,,, I never was to bright.... Thnk about these..... "Record Attendance" at every track before going bankrupt?? Maybe, just maybe, the sponsors that are brought in, do do some research,, and they do discover the numbers are "fluffed" by 2 or more,,,, might that explain why there are few sponsors in the series? And those sponsors are mostly B2B or hanging with Paul Newman, or B2B with KK, or a ride buying driver brought them?? Are there any consumer product sponsors that want eyeballs in the series??? Something to think about. I gotta go lurk. I DO NOT want to overstep the board's friendly manner. |
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6 Jul 2005, 06:14 (Ref:1348494)
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#38 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,885
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Well electro, since we are talking attendance would you like to explain the Kansas IRL race where Nascar Nextel Cup ticket buyers also HAVE to purchase a IRL ticket in order to get their NASCAR Cup seats? If that's not fluffing attendance I don't know what is. Obviously plenty are going to show up to take advantage of their tickets and watch the NASCAR Truck Race.
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__________________
Wolverines! |
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6 Jul 2005, 07:11 (Ref:1348512)
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#39 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,065
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Quote:
 Seriiously, though. I think every series tries to up their attendance numbers to make themselves look good. Why can't attendance be measured by the number of tickets sold? Even if some people don't show up, so what? Revenue came in anyways, and thus it should count as people showing up. |
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__________________
Cuz trucks need love, too! |
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6 Jul 2005, 10:48 (Ref:1348649)
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#40 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,073
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But that is a rare event where the tickets are "coupled" mountainstar. I cna't recall the thread, but there was one recently where Tim Northcutt listed all of the tracks where NASCAR has events and there are also open-wheel events. He demonstrated that your scenario is actually the minority and also that the tickets given out were being used, iirc.
I think electro has presented the findings he has arrived at in a factual manner. It makes quite a bit of sense that sponsors would tend to hold back their support for a series where the TV is consistently in the .4 - .7 range and the race attendance is not as strong as reported either. In fact he makes an excellent point regarding the "bankruptcy season" where CART reported record attendance everywhere they went. To Amar's point, they ARE measuring attendance by tickets sold the problem being that when I buy a raceday ticket AND I paddock pass I become two fans - that is what electro is trying to say here. It would be like going to a baseball game and having the admission ticket and the ticket to park your car count the attendance as "two." Electro, you present your case very factually and objectively - those are qualities welcome on the Forum here! Thanks! |
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__________________
"He's still a young guy and I always think, slightly morbidly, the last thing you learn is how to die and at the end of the day everybody learns every single day." - The Ever-Cheerfull Ron Dennis on Lewis Hamilton. |
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6 Jul 2005, 12:47 (Ref:1348729)
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#41 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,147
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Quote:
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__________________
... Since all men live in darkness, who believes something is not a test of whether it is true or false. I have spent years trying to get people to ask simple questions: What is the evidence, and what does it mean? -Bill James |
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6 Jul 2005, 14:13 (Ref:1348799)
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#42 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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Quote:
If a venue requires you to buy a season ticket for all of their events due to demand, that is their business.... However, the attendance last Sunday (people there who know the place suggested 70,000) was actual butts in seats....The Nextel Cup race sells out at 80,000....the Indy Star estimated 60,000+...but two people who I talked to who were there and were with someone who knows the place from other races said 70,000 was a closer number... No on from the broadcast networks (ESPN or IRL Radio) or the media called the race a "sellout".... The only thing a season package "fluffs" is the money that would got to the IRL's bank account...whether those people who had to buy the season package show up for the race or not....they had to buy the ticket...and the IRL gets their cut of tickets sold. Thus the venues, the IRL, and the media count who shows up....not tickets sold....and it is a far more accurate way to track your real attendance than tickets sold.... |
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__________________
Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
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6 Jul 2005, 14:34 (Ref:1348817)
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#43 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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NOTE:
Please consider this important distinction: It depends on what kind of tickets a Series sells, and how those are counted.... Example....The ALMS sells a weekend "Super Ticket" that covers all days of action...thus a person who attends all three days should be counted as "one" person...as they probably do.... If someone buys a one-day ticket, he/she could and should be counted as "one person" attending the weekend event.... Paddock passes should not be counted....period...because you can't use a paddock pass unless you get in the gate first..... But selling single-session tickets to everything and counting everything you sold is bogus...because you are double and triple-counting a large portion of your crowd.... From an ALMS perspective, I believe that they count Race Day attendance, and I'll tell you why.... From people that I know who were at Mosport last year, they told me that there were about 70,000 people there on Race Day....and they had sources who said that at least 15,000 or more single session tickets were bought for other days of the weekend.... In the ALMS marketing packet for 2005, their reported attendance at Mosport was 70,000...the second-largest crowd of the ALMS season.... I can tell you 1st hand that at Mid-Ohio in 2004 there were 50,000 people there on Race Day...I've had at least 16 years of experience in estimating outdoor crowd sizes from a summer concert series we host each summer here in Indy.....I know how to estimate density vs. area covered and I can come pretty close to the actual figure... The ALMS marketing info listed the Mid-Ohio attendance last year at 50,000....I know from my own experience that the number is pretty accurate... |
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__________________
Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
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6 Jul 2005, 18:08 (Ref:1348950)
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#44 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 51
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Quote:
To again inform those that dont know,,, I'm not a hardcore fan of the CC management and "some" of it's fans. I wont be offended if I'm flamed. Or the info tossed out by some. I'll just post any info I have in a non-biased manner and let the forum members decide for themselves.... Mountain Star,, very good point... The question if tracks should have season ticket package, and how much do they count towards the indivdual series attendance?? Tracks make big money from their season ticket packages,, offer VIP parking, extra's,, same seats every year if you PAY them more,, ETC. Matter of fact, friends of mine travel to Texas every race weekend with their season ticket package. this year they had to pay another $1,000 some dollars to reserve their motor home site and their seats from year to year. (good way to meet and keep friends in same spots every race). Tracks like it, and will never lower what they can force upon others. Besides, if the season ticket holders are not into the IRL, give the tickets away to friends or co-workers, or sell them to recoup a little money. Both ways have made others happy. Count towards attendance,,, without question there would be many people less that would not buy individual IRL tickets and attend the race. No question. How many? Dunno? How to count them for attendance,, if a rearend was in the seat,, it's counted. The bottom line is it does "fluff" attendance. But it's the tracks "fault" for making a dollar. Not the series for racing there. |
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6 Jul 2005, 18:08 (Ref:1348951)
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#45 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,744
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Electrocuted, please don't take my comments in a way that would suggest that you should take a hike. I'm glad you posted you info/comments in a way that was non-partisan and in the interest of discussion. Frankly this forum's been a tad dull lately, IMO you added something positive to discuss. I'm just not sure that I believe the full magnitude of your arguement without more details/info. You have to understand that you're making pretty heavy claims that at least I haven't heard before, so some further info and discussion on the merits of it is prefectly reasonable.
Is there any way of confirming that pit passes are counted in the total and each day? If we assume that the weekend numbers are a correct measure of all tickets sold (including pit passes), tickets issues to employees/volunteers and press/guests, how would it add up in an event where the seating appears to be a lot less than could generate such a high weekend figure? What I'm getting at is there a way of determinng the typical number of misleading ticket sales? From the suggestions that have been made and one makes some reasonable guesses, that's a huge level of fraud at each event. As for the record setting total attendance in the "bankruptcy season," I would suggest that the answer is Mexico City. |
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__________________
No Rotor, No Motor. |
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6 Jul 2005, 21:47 (Ref:1349135)
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#46 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 51
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Quote:
Is there any way of confirming that pit passes are counted in the total and each day? No. And Yes. First, up front, I can not PROVE the 1 person = 6.... All I can say is I know what I'm talking about. I can try to make it easier to understand, easier to beleive.. During the broadcasts listen for "Tickets Issued or Tickets Something." Listen to see if the announcers or any quotes in newspapers are "fans" or "people" at the track. The avoidance of saying individual fans or individual spectators is telling. Where it begun to sink in,, A couple of quotes stuck out couple years ago,, from Cleveland actually. The quote was "Tickets Issued." That had a lot of foum posters wondering why that "phrase?" Then a crazy poster that not many people from one side or the other cared for, stated he counted seats at Cleveland and counted 20,000 seats. The announced attendance was the 40 odd thousand it always seems to be. A few others, IRL fans for what it's worth, did a seat count with photo's, seating map, they added the General Admission and hospitality. And they all came up with roughly 25,000 people. I followed the counting and I also came up with their numbers. So the question was,, how did the numbers get so high? Where did the "Tickets Issued" come in?? Some seat of the pants rational close guesses and pencil in some numbers and it was fairly certain,, fairly certain,, that the Tickets Issued counted every ticket in the ticket box. Not just the grandstands, GA, hospitality, and suites,, but also the paddock/pit tickets also. The 3 day weekend numbers, that included the extra "attendance" of the pit/paddock as well, are in fact 1 = 6. I understand "trust" in what I said is difficult at best. I'm not asking anyone to believe or trust me. Just watch, learn, listen yourselves and you'll soon catch on and what I've relayed here will make sense,, and be accepted as truthful. As for the record setting total attendance in the "bankruptcy season," I would suggest that the answer is Mexico City. "Record Attendance" was the entire year. And the year before that. And I beleive the year before that also. At every track they went to.
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6 Jul 2005, 23:03 (Ref:1349178)
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#47 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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Another element of this is that tracks DO have to count everyone on their property with a ticket or credential in some way for accounting purposes and for the IRS in the U.S., i.e., people bought these for "X" bucks and we gave away these. Admissions issued (even the "hard cards") have to be accounted for. That skews actual fan attendance in the same way that Electrocuted is saying.
There's a downside to fluffing up attendance numbers in regard to taxes. In the late '70s, the Philadelphia Bell of the old world Football League announced 40,000 for a game that didn't have 5,000 and the Pennsylvania Dept. of Revenue was in their offices on Monday afternoon looking for their cut. That was a bit hard to explain, the story got around and people in all sports calmed down about that stuff for a short while. |
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7 Jul 2005, 04:12 (Ref:1349257)
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#48 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 51
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Right, Indycool.
Thats another example of how SPORTS (not just OW racing) increase the attendance numbers. Reminds me of when Miami announced CART's attendance as 27,000 something. But,, in court under oath,,, stutter,, stutter,, 14,000 tickets sold. Not picking on CC... It's just that most IRL tracks dont bump up their IRL numbers much,,, being ovals and fixed grandstand seating and all.
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7 Jul 2005, 06:20 (Ref:1349293)
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#49 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,885
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Quote:
And BTW, who cares now what CART did. It doesn't exist anymore. Last edited by macdaddy; 7 Jul 2005 at 11:07. |
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__________________
Wolverines! |
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7 Jul 2005, 10:20 (Ref:1349423)
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#50 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,073
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Hmmm. The data is presented with the appropriate caveats as to accuracy and what sort of assumptions are being made. Electro states apriori that the methodology is not confirmed.
Yet, using the methodology we seem to be able to "back in" to a number that seems fairly solid. Choosing to disagree is fine as we may/may not believe or trust the numbers but it seems we could at least be a little nicer to each. After all, everyone here voices an opinion, don't they? BTW, "what CART did" was germaine to the purpose of discussion as it bore directly on supporting electro's position. Further, there is no actual evidence to show that OWRS are doing things any differently in that department either. Seeing as how a number of the support staff carried over to the new regime it would make sense that the day-to-day operations would remain the same. |
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__________________
"He's still a young guy and I always think, slightly morbidly, the last thing you learn is how to die and at the end of the day everybody learns every single day." - The Ever-Cheerfull Ron Dennis on Lewis Hamilton. |
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