Merger talks again?

[Fogelhund]

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../60221006/1001

Not much to say about this, other than a merger can only be positive. Will it happen, who knows, but it is better to know what is happening, than not.

[macdaddy]

Okay. Here's the deal...

Many times over the past we've had threads very similar to this one. And every single time they had quickly degraded to mud-slinging matches. Therefore we've been closing them before they really get a chance to begin.

However, nobody can argue that the topic isn't worthy of discussion.

Marcus and I have decided that we've got a mighty-fine group of members here, and we're going to allow this thread to continue. But keep in mind that it's going to be under a very watchful eye. There will be no character-assasinations. If you don't like TG or KK, fine. That's your right. But defammation will not be tolerated. Don't bother bashing one series or the other.

Consider this post as your unofficial warning. Anything from here-on-in will be dealt with quickly. And if this thread degrades like the others have it will be closed, and no others will be allowed until there is an official press release about unification.

[/mod-hat]

[macdaddy]

I must admit that I didn't see this coming. Not now.

Firstly, you'll find two related stories here and here.

What follows is what my reply would have been, after having only read Fogelhund's opening link. I PM'd this to he and Marcus.

Interesting read, at least the part about KK and TG having multiple meetings. The rest kinda amuses me though. The author is suggesting what 2007 is going to be like, right down to the last detail, and yet provides no sources. In fact, he keeps telling how nobody is talking. So what he's doing is speculating, just like so many others have done.

I'm still not convinced that unification is going to happen. And in a way, I hope it doesn't. I feel confident that the new chassis for next year will bring in new (former) teams, and their sponsors. Thus I don't think KK will merge anything until 2008 at the earliest. If ever.

On the other hand, it would be nice to see it happen. How many times have I mentioned my love for the occasional oval? Especially 500's? Remember when the schedule featured Milwaukee, Phoenix, New Hampshire, Michigan, Indianapolis, Homestead... If they don't merge, the "new ChampCar" isn't going to be the same to me.

Again, I think 2007 is too early. There would be too many existing contracts to adhere to. Keep in mind that ChampCar hasn't been going around signing one-year deals. Most have been for 3 or 5. And would Honda be interested in returning to turbo technology? Does KK want Cosworth to be put into a position where they have to compete with Honda? Does Ford want to spend enough money to do that? (The theory of a cost-effective series goes out the window). Panoz is contracted - could they provide enough chassis? And even though they claim that what they're producing is designed for ovals, is it designed for superspeedways? (Safety-wise). Would all of the major team owners and/or sponsors want to run a spec series?

Do I want it to happen?
Yes. The good outweighs the bad.
Merge the tracks, merge the teams, but keep the turbo. Make sure it lasts for at least 1000 miles between rebuilds, penalize the teams/manufacturers for engines that don't. Keep the costs in-check, by giving the manufacturers a price-cap.

[D.R.T.]

I hope it happens. As soon as possible.

[enemy-ace]

Funny thing is I think the biggest winners out of any re-unification would be TG and KK.
I like the idea of leaving them alone to do it and I'll enjoy the races in the meanwhile.

[coyote9999]

Thanks to Marcus and Macdaddy for letting this tread open. I will do my part. I personnally have mixed emotions about a merger. I guess it would depend on the end product.

[Kevin_K]

As long as Houston stays on the schedule, I'll be happy. It's finally back after five years and I don't want it to go away again.

[JohnSSC]

I think the impetus here is from sponsors such as Honda, Cosworth (Ford badging) and Bridgestone. They - at least Honda and Bridgestone - have expressed their desire to see one series as from marketing perspectives it makes much more sense for them. While talks may be going on at the "Top" (KK & TG) I get the feeling the charge is being led from the sponsors behind the scenes.

We have, however, been teased before...

[Roninho]

A unified serie is the best way to secure the future of us o-w racing.

I just don't think that they are even close to a merger, based on the info KK gave in the interview (actually nothing apart from we've talked), the response of what's his name from the irl and the lack of response of TG and Forsythe. If they were close to a merger imo there would be other responses.

Anyway, we'll see.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Roninho

A unified serie is the best way to secure the future of us o-w racing.

I just don't think that they are even close to a merger, based on the info KK gave in the interview (actually nothing apart from we've talked), the response of what's his name from the irl and the lack of response of TG and Forsythe. If they were close to a merger imo there would be other responses.

Anyway, we'll see.

Or they gave the responses they did in order to downplay any expectations.

David Phillips' column at the SpeedTV.com site, which macdaddy linked to above, is a really good take on the situation. And I sure hope Autoweek's article hasn't damaged the ongoing process.

At the same time, as Phillips writes, there will always be some people that would rather see the series stay apart due to their own interests, and who knows what those people might do in order to sabotage any attempts at getting the band back together?

In any case I hope the media grants KK's wish, that they should leave him and TG alone.

[indycool]

I think it'd be interesting to know who leaked the story. It would seem, from the quotes from KK and Nation, that the story is VERY premature. IMO, it was probably leaked by someone who doesn't have anything to gain from a merger, or has something to lose.

[Rich D]

It's the only way forward, IMO, to save North American open wheel racing. Sooner or later, both sides are going to see this. 2007 is the perfect time to do this, with the new chassis etc. Fingers crossed.

[Fogelhund]

Let's put away the politics, and the dislike of people, teams, and series for a bit.

Here is a reality.

The IRL currently has the following teams that have been somewhat competitive; Andretti Green, Fernadez Racing, Ganassi Racing, Marlboro Team Penske, Rahal Letterman.

Then the drivers; Wheldon, Kanaan, Hornish, Franchitti, Sharp, Castroneves, Carpentie, Dixon, Enge, Briscoe...

Champcar's teams; Forsythe, Newman Haas, Ru Sport, PKV and so on....

Then Champcar's drivers; Bourdais, Tracy, Servia, Glock, Wilson, Allmendinger, Tagliani, Dominguez, Da Matta, Ranger, Weirdheim, Junqueira... .and so on...

Just think about all of these teams, and drivers on the same grid, for any race that you can think about. Tell me that isn't something you wouldn't want to see?

This grid at the Glen, or Road America, or Indy... think about that. As a long term fan, who has slowly become less interested, I think this would be great, and I absolutely would consider going to more races again.

Of course the sponsors and manufacturers are pushing/begging for this. Honda doesn't want to be racing against themselves, and with a new chassis coming on line, no series would have any advantage over the other. It just makes perfect sense, and is the perfect time to do so. I hope that all of those people who are passionate about their series, can put aside their feelings, and understand that this is what is best for what they love, and accept the others back. Working together, Open Wheel can really move forward much faster, than in working apart.

While I hold no false hopes that this time it will happen now, I do understand that it has to happen somehow, at some point.. this just can't go on the way it has, someone, or both continue to lose.

[Tim Northcutt]

I agree with you, Fogelhund....

I would add Panther to that list as well....they would be there...and they are quite competitive....

The politics of the whole thing has bothered me for a long time....

and with the players (teams and drivers) you have named in that partial list, open-wheel racing would put on one of the best (if not the best) racing shows in the world.....

I like watching both of them now...even though they are separate...

But I would love to see all of them on one grid in one unified series.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by indycool

I think it'd be interesting to know who leaked the story. It would seem, from the quotes from KK and Nation, that the story is VERY premature. IMO, it was probably leaked by someone who doesn't have anything to gain from a merger, or has something to lose.

Indeed, indycool.

Phillips tries to say that there might be good that comes out of the story breaking because it will put pressure on them to get the deal done. Balderdash. The pressure we fans bring to bear will be only through our attendance (or non-attendance) and TV viewing (or ignoring). The market has shown both of them that we uncommitted fans find something in their two versions of NA OW racing to be lacking. Us reading the story and saying "yeah, that" isn't going to change or speed up the process.

However, I can see that this will provide some impetus for those who are vested in the existence of the split - whether it be the idiots who flame the fans on the forums, or business rivals, or small fish in either series who would lose out when the competitive level jumps due to the merger - to up their efforts to sabotage any friendship that might lead to a proper business relationship.

I don't see this leak as good at all.

I see the ultimate solution of one series as inevitable, and I'd prefer the merger to happen rather than both series stripmined of resources in a "last series standing" battle. I'm optimistic about the content of the news, but I'm distressed that it's escaped.

[indycool]

Good post and thoughts, p-c.

The pressures for unification are much more complex internally for both series than it is for the flamers on the boards and have more to do with operational effort and thinkin' than the egos of TG and KK which are bandied about by those flamers who think that way. From Nation's comments in Robin Miller's piece at Speed, something like "it depends on the chemistry between Tony and Kevin but they're talking and that's good," they may be in the process of finding some common ground to deal with all of those complexities.

That's going to be a long process, and this story breaking as it did, IMO, WAY WAY prematurely, can't help either KK or TG from keeping their eye on the ball to come up with a solution. It just threw them both into the public fishbowl and we'll have endless people, including media, trying to get to each one and cause disruption to that process.

At this point the story is out and done and rumors will be rampant every time either one of them sneezes, but I expect neither will have any comment to staff or anyone else while they continue to pursue options.

[Uesque]

Kalkhoven and George are both shrewd operators, if indeed this is a deal they want to do, additional attention from the media or fans is not going to derail it. If anything, the leak could help gauge interest from both fans and sponsors.

I was surprised to hear speculation centering on the Champcar chassis and engine being favored. But it was George's stated position initially to restrain CART's escalating costs, and the Panoz is the cheapest chassis. Both engine manufacturers have experience in both series, so that would probably go to the cheapest also.

I don't think anyone in either series is evil, I just favor whoever gives me racing with right turns.

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by indycool

I think it'd be interesting to know who leaked the story.......... IMO, it was probably leaked by someone who doesn't have anything to gain from a merger, or has something to lose.

David Malsher from Atlas is reporting ;

"The latest round of merger talks between the two series came when a fax was leaked from IRL offices to US weekly magazine AutoWeek, stating that Kalkhoven and George had been skiing together, and were now in regular communication."

[indycool]

Yeah, let me get this straight:Autosport is reporting that, too.

So, Autoweek told Autosport and Malsher the source of its story was an IRL fax and then called Kevin Kalkhoven for a response, but clouded its sources in its own story with "third parties say" and so forth.

Surrrrrrrrrre.

[mac]

Let's have a look at some of the good that could come out of a merger. Just allow yourself to dream for a moment - imagine this for a "possible" 2007 season:

17 Venues (12 US, 2 Canada, 1 Mexico, 1 Australia, 1 Japan):
Homestead
St Petersburg
Long Beach
Motegi
Indianapolis
Milwaukee
Cleveland
Toronto
Denver
Chicagoland
Michigan
Edmonton
Road America
Watkins Glen
Mexico City
Surfers Paradise
Texas

Teams (30 cars):
Andretti Green Racing
Tony Kanaan
Dario Franchitti
Bryan Herta

Dale Coyne Racing
Giorgio Pantano
Ryan Dalziel

Fernandez Racing
Scott Sharp
Kosuke Matsuura

Forsythe Championship Racing
Paul Tracy
Mario Dominguez

HVM
Ronnie Bremer
Rodolfo Lavin

Marlboro Team Penske
Helio Castroneves
Sam Hornish Jr

Mi-Jack Conquest Racing
Andrew Ranger
Nelson Phillippe

Newman/Haas Racing
Sebastien Bourdais
Bruno Junqueira

Panther Racing
Vitor Meira

PKV Racing
Katherine Legge
Ryan Briscoe

Rahal Letterman Racing
Danica Patrick
Buddy Rice

Rocketsports Racing
Richard Lyons
Oriol Servia

RuSport
Justin Wilson
AJ Allmendinger

Target Chip Ganassi Racing
Dan Wheldon
Scott Dixon

Team Australia
Alex Tagliani
Will Power

I know there most likely would not be 30 cars, and the composition of teams would change severely - but this is the sort of quality grid that could be put together.

Who could not be excited by that ......!?

[Dutton]

IRL events I followed reasonably closely following the split, but it was CART that I was interested in. I would faithfully follow it: until, that is, I started drifting away from it in the 2001 season. The 2002-2005 seasons have been particualry barren, with IRL at this point nearly dropping entirely off of the radar (but not quite).

During this period (2002-2005) I have watched some events, both IRL and CART/ChampCar, but not very many: approximately 4/5 CART/ChampCar and 1/2 IRL races, and, sadly, with no "fire" involved (which there was back in the day).

This year, I have resolved to stop being so lazy (especially as I am in Canada now). So, as a result, I am going to watch every single round of IRL and Champcar.

This, by now, immensely ignorant individual, with regards ChampCar/IRL, would LOVE to see unification. An already scarce, scattered audience would be much better served without such conflicting interests and forces.

I am now having to do some "studying" to get myself somewhat up to speed in preparation for the upcoming season.

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by indycool

Yeah, let me get this straight:Autosport is reporting that, too.

So, Autoweek told Autosport and Malsher the source of its story was an IRL fax and then called Kevin Kalkhoven for a response, but clouded its sources in its own story with "third parties say" and so forth.

Surrrrrrrrrre.

Small beer anyway. The details of merger talks are a far more interesting topic than integrity issues within the IRL offices.

[Amar7605]

Okay, let's say that a merger is possible. Can a Champ Car/IRL unified series compete with the NASCAR juggernaut? Will a combined series be able to get the sponsorship dollars and TV ratings?

Coyote9999 made a good point earlier. What will be the end product? Will it be something that the fans will like? For example, will the fans like the choices in tracks?

Lots of questions to ponder.

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by Amar7605

Okay, let's say that a merger is possible. Can a Champ Car/IRL unified series compete with the NASCAR juggernaut? Will a combined series be able to get the sponsorship dollars and TV ratings?

Coyote9999 made a good point earlier. What will be the end product? Will it be something that the fans will like? For example, will the fans like the choices in tracks?

Lots of questions to ponder.

To answer the first question, it's simple: Make sure that viewers watching at home know when the next race is. With NASCAR, the television audience knows that with a few exceptions, there is going to be another race next Sunday. Open wheel? Well, the IRL starts up in March at Homestead, then goes to St. Pete the next week, then Motegi a few weeks after that, at which point the series goes into hibernation before Indy, then follows up with back-to-back races at the Glen and Texas, and so on. Meanwhile, Champ Car's season begins in Long Beach the week after St. Pete, then races at Houston and Monterey on the weekends of Indy qualifying, goes to Milwaukee for the week after the 500, then doesn't race again for another few weeks at Portland. Confused yet? We're not even out of June.

At least the IRL's TV contract is with one network; trying to find out what channel is airing the next CCWS race (and whether it will be live or tape delay) is absolutely maddening. If open wheel can have a set order in their schedule, such as an oval race followed by a road race in two-week intervals, preferrably with one network and one cable outlet, then viewers can expect when they can turn on the TV and catch a race.

Another question I have is, why not take a prospective merger to consider making a considerable change in the regs? Champ car has been running with 2.65L V8s since the early 1970s. I understand that it has been a successful and venerable formula, but it has been some 35 years now. Isn't it about time that a curveball is thrown into the mix, so that everyone begins with a fresh start? Don't do it right away, of course: say, use the existing equipment for a couple of years, then go into 2009 with a new formula. I know that purists would go crazy at the thought, but a new engine formula would solidify the turning of a page. I'm not even saying to lose the turbos. Just change the capacity, or the configuration.

There's always the question about the schedule, as well. Right now, there are 15 Champ Car dates and 14 IndyCar dates, equaling 28 venues holding open wheel races in 2006 (Milwaukee hosts both series). A merged series would be able to sustain around 20 races at most, which is going to leave some tracks and promoters out in the cold. Ideally, the oval and road circuit races would be split 50/50, meaning ten races of each variety. The must-haves are Indy and Long Beach, without question. The next list of important races are probably the international races of significance (Mexico City, Toronto, Surfers Paradise, and Motegi), then likely the oval races at Milwaukee (Champ Car's date, the week after Indy), Michigan, and Texas, and possibly the airport in Cleveland. That gives a backbone of ten races, five of them ovals, five of them road circuits.

Then you have to think about the regional markets. Certainly, one of the Bay Area races (Sears Point or San Jose) will be deemed unnecessary. Would the fans in the Pacific Northwest travel all the way to Edmonton to watch a race, or those in the northern Rockies and plains trek to Portland? Would the Watkins Glen or Montreal audiences cross over to New Hampshire? Is it wiser for your Southern race to be held in Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, or Birmingham? Does the fact that it's the best road course in the U.S. justify having a Road America event when Milwaukee has a race, and likely will Chicago? Could the owners of Pocono Raceway be persuaded in repaving to make it suitable for open-wheel speeds and possibly consolidate the Mid-Atlantic market? If Monterrey and Fort Worth have races, does Houston need one two? What about Vegas? Phoenix? Kansas City? St. Louis? Kentucky? Richmond? Can there be a decent time to fit in Fontana?

Finally, what is the pitch, the catch, the gimmick? What does open wheel have that NASCAR doesn't? I'm not in advertising, so I'll leave that for the professionals to figure out.

[rustyfan]

Excellent post Fish_Flake

When it comes to an unified schedule I'd be more than happy as long as Road America, Watkins Glen, Indy and Texas are on it

As for open wheel's gimmick, I think it would be better for an unified open wheel championship to concentrate on doing their own thing, rather than worrying about how to 'beat' NASCAR.