Merger talks again?

[JohnSSC]

This is all premature, of course, so talking of rules changes or venues is basically a wintertime "hot stove" topic. Uesque and IC make some interesting points here and Fish_Flake touches on one as well.

I think that the last thing that should happen IF a merger occurs is that the new entity should be thinking "compete with NASCAR." That is way to big of a job. The goal should be: "bring back the open wheel fans." Put together a good series running at solid venues. Make the formula entertaining but not too costly. Keep the most talented of a pretty talented crop of drivers from both series. Take some cues from Fish_Flake's post regarding schedule consistency and et voila: instant viability!

NASCAR "sells" a much different product. In the words of an industrialist whose name I can't remember: "Create a need, and fill it."

That should be the open wheel mantra.

[okeefe]

[QUOTE=Uesque]Kalkhoven and George are both shrewd operators, if indeed this is a deal they want to do, additional attention from the media or fans is not going to derail it. If anything, the leak could help gauge interest from both fans and sponsors.

I agree. Maybe they both know the deal for 2007 already at this point to have made some of their individual choices for 2006 in their own series. Maybe they're each enjoying this 2006 as their last "independent" year to do with as they wish and put in place what they wish each in their own respective individual series for carry through into their combined 2007 when they may have to consult one another about it more. Maybe the deal is mostly done already and this "leaking" at this point is mere propaganda.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

When it comes to an unified schedule I'd be more than happy as long as Road America, Watkins Glen, Indy and Texas are on it

Texas I cannot recall off-hand, what is it? I am kinda assuming a super-speedway? Thus, I will not consider it in this post (because I cannot remember it off-hand, not because it may be a super-speedway).

Elkhart, Watkins, and Indy for sure.

Add Laguna Seca (I just think the track is class) and Edmonton (simply because it is close to me!) and I would be happy, .

[Roninho]

If there would be a unified series, imho the only way that unified series would make real progress compared to the current situation is by not expanding the schedule (or at least not to many extra races).
Have a schedule of 15-16-17 races compromised of the financially most interesting races (which would include foreign races like motegi and surfers).

This way there won't be a problem of not having enough cars (i mean there are just enough teams out there to get the car count @ 24 with 16 races, there won't be enough with 25 races) and the serie would make money on the events, lower purses & no team support, and increase promotion and tv (by the extra generated money and the reduced expenses). That way there would be a viable open-wheel serie in which sponsors would get more value for their money than they would get at this moment, with a great junior serie to develop the mears's, andretti's, rahal's, villeneuve's, tracys, stewarts and hornish's of the future.

[Purist]

Since I'm really into the race tracks, here's a list of the venues I would think would be good for the series.

1. Indianapolis
2. Pocono (I'm pretty sure they've done some paving work since 1989.)
3. Michigan
4. Fontana
5. Motegi
6. Texas (I have mixed feelings considering some of the accidents there.)
7. Phoenix
8. Milwaukee
9. Mexico City
10. Road America
11. Portland
12. Watkins Glen
13. Laguna Seca
14. St. Petersburg
15. Long Beach
16. Toronto
17. Cleveland
18. Edmonton
19. San Jose (I do NOT like the IRL course at Sears Point.)
20. Houston (It's a car park circuit, so it'll be roomier than regular streets.)

The reasonable "standby" ovals from what I can tell would be Texas World Speedway, Homestead, Kentucky, and Nashville Superspeedwyay. As for road courses on the back burner, Monterrey in Mexico, Montreal, Miller Motorsports Park, and Thunderbolt Raceway (work in progress).

Those are just my thoughts.

The one thing I will say about the cars themselves is that I think it would be agood idea to just stick with the Cosworth DFV derivative.

Ah, jeez, left out Surfer's Paradise. Put Surfer's in the schedule and move San Jose to the back burner.

[coyote9999]

Please please don't leave Montreal out. If we get a new promoter there anything is possible. I believe that Montreal is a classic course in a key market.

[macdaddy]

Again, 2007 is simply too early. Sure - alot can happen in a year. Always does. Even TG echoed my thoughts, when SpeedTV reported: "George cited long-term agreements between the IRL and its partners as one of the reasons possibly blocking a deal with Champ Car."

And that road travels both ways. ChampCar has long-term agreements with many (if not most) of its venues and sponsors. The only circuits that I can think of whose contracts expire after this year are Milwaukee, Elkhart and Montreal. Maybe Monterrey. I stand to be corrected and I'm sure somebody can.

Thinking out loud, but something like this could feasibly work:

Perhaps the IRL and Honda may switch to ChampCar spec in 2007. All the fulltime teams from both series draw tickets out of a hat at the beginning of the season, and those are the circuits that they'll run next year. Assume there were 24 combined venues left, and each team would need to run 16 races to complete the championship.

They'd all need to run Indy, Fontana and Michigan. Get Lloyds of London and a presenting sponsor to offer a huge bonus to anybody who wins the Triple-Crown. Allow a maximum of 33 cars to enter, if you don't qualify you don't qualify.

That leaves thirteen races per team.
They'd need to compete in 4 of the eight road-courses which are on the combined schedule. And 4 of the nine remaining ovals, 4 of the seven streets and 1 of the two airports.

No two races (other than the Triple-Crown) would be likely to see the same starting grid. Yet they'd all be fighting for the same championship. It would be confusing at first, up until such time as they were able to trim the schedule down.

This would make it difficult for presenting sponsors though. They'd run the risk of their team not even being there! Provisions would have to be written into it somehow.

I know... I'm rambling now... Forgive me...

But who knows what they're talking about? Maybe they're buying Ecclestone out? All we can do right now is speculate and dream.

[mountainstar]

To me there is no point wasting the time speculating on any of this because 1. we've beat this issue to death in the past and 2. there is nothing firm right now to even speculate on.

[indycool]

mountainstar, maybe for the first time, we agree. What we -- and seemingly everyone else -- know is that KK and TG talked over a little wine in Paris and talked about going down a hill in the snow. Period. The original unattributed story and the ongoing unattributed stories that are piling on from everywhere with all these people claiming to know something are preposterous.

[okeefe]

Surely in this age of legal wizardry there would be a way that these two sides could enjoy the benefits of being united on some common issues, but also remain independent on some unique issues. Kind of like a "limited partnership" - some things are shared and common to both; some things are not and are unique to each. I think this would be the way to go. That way, no one has to lose the "war" before some type of "treaty" is signed; and it also justifies the fight up to this point with honour on both sides.

[Uesque]

Originally Posted by indycool

I think it'd be interesting to know who leaked the story. It would seem, from the quotes from KK and Nation, that the story is VERY premature. IMO, it was probably leaked by someone who doesn't have anything to gain from a merger, or has something to lose.

Any coincidence that it was leaked right at the beginning of the NASCAR season which starts months before either series and would draw all racing attention away from them? Then once they do start, people forget about them since they've already been hooked on tintops. Good move from a marketing standpoint, even if it doesn't come to fruition.

[greatscott]

I kind of like having 2 series . it is twice as many open wheel races to watch and attend. but i would like to see both series get together for 4 500 mile races. like indy, michigan, texas and fontana. that would make a huge media frenzy 4 times a year Champcar vs. IRL! yoooooow baby!

[greatscott]

Originally Posted by greatscott

I kind of like having 2 series . it is twice as many open wheel races to watch and attend. but i would like to see both series get together for 4 500 mile races. like indy, michigan, texas and fontana. that would make a huge media frenzy 4 times a year Champcar vs. IRL! yoooooow baby!

just think both series can be there both separate enities and still come together to reunite for 4 races for one common purpose the love of the sport.not only that they can possible run a 43 car field like nascar.not likely be it sure sounds good to me.

[D.R.T.]

However the two series are running each other into the ground, driving away sponsors, fans etc. All the while Nascar runs with a big smile on its face.

[climb]

well I'm not really sure the current Nascar's success depends only on Open wheel troubles; nascar are succesful themselves.
If C-C and IRL reunite it'll be good for OW, but I don't think nascar have to be too afraid of it.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by climb

well I'm not really sure the current Nascar's success depends only on Open wheel troubles; nascar are succesful themselves.
If C-C and IRL reunite it'll be good for OW, but I don't think nascar have to be too afraid of it.

I think it did at one point. If one recalls in 1994, CART(Indycar) was a very profitable company that made good revenues from TV. NASCAR at the time was on 5 different networks and was still more of a regional sport. We all know Bill France was egging tony george on to "take the bull by the horns" and confront CART which resulted in the split and the subsequent destabilization of open wheel racing. Yes nascar probably still would have done fine, but the near destruction of OW in the USA certainly helped the process along.

Nascar does have to be afraid of it. Sponsors drive the sport and what may be fashionable now, may not be 5 years from now. If champcar grows and expands a sponsor that may have to spend $20-$30 mil to get on the back of grid in NASCAR may consider a $10 mil investment in a front line champcar team a better return on it's investment.

[climb]

Yes, but sponsors are also driven by crowds on track and TV ratings; a reunification will surely benefit OW, but affecting radically nascar's market share will be quite unlikely, ate least in the short-middle term.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I think it did at one point. If one recalls in 1994, CART(Indycar) was a very profitable company that made good revenues from TV. NASCAR at the time was on 5 different networks and was still more of a regional sport. We all know Bill France was egging tony george on to "take the bull by the horns" and confront CART which resulted in the split and the subsequent destabilization of open wheel racing. Yes nascar probably still would have done fine, but the near destruction of OW in the USA certainly helped the process along.

Nascar does have to be afraid of it. Sponsors drive the sport and what may be fashionable now, may not be 5 years from now. If champcar grows and expands a sponsor that may have to spend $20-$30 mil to get on the back of grid in NASCAR may consider a $10 mil investment in a front line champcar team a better return on it's investment.

The common idea is indeed that open-wheel was in better shape than NASCAR in the early 90's, but this, however, is somewhat a misconception - CART was in good shape, yes, but NASCAR were seeing bigger crowd numbers in the early 90's already, well before the split. I've read several articles concering the "problems" within the US open-wheel scene in various issues of Open Wheel Magazine - and they were published pre-split.

The split did definitely accelerate what was already happening though.

In any case I think it's a bad idea to look towards NASCAR and say "how the heck do we beat them?" - instead they should look at themselves and say "how do we make people interested in our product and how do we keep them interested?".

As for why the split happened... well... for the sake if this thread I won't comment the incorrect desciption above

[indycool]

Agreed, Rustyfan. NASCAR had a larger fan base long before the split.

mountainstar, "we all DON'T know" that Bill France was egging on Tony George to start the split to NASCAR's benefit. We know that France and TG talked about, and struck a bargain for, the Brickyard 400, but IMO, it had nothing to do with some conspiracy against CART.

As for some mythical trophy for world superiority between NASCAR and open wheel racing, it doesn't exist and never will. NASCAR's popularity has nothing to do with open wheel racing's popularity or lack of it. When Long Beach arrives, there's probably a NASCAR race in competition on TV but there's also the Masters and probably major league baseball. The kind of racing people choose ain't the only game in town.

[greatscott]

Originally Posted by indycool

Agreed, Rustyfan. NASCAR had a larger fan base long before the split.

mountainstar, "we all DON'T know" that Bill France was egging on Tony George to start the split to NASCAR's benefit. We know that France and TG talked about, and struck a bargain for, the Brickyard 400, but IMO, it had nothing to do with some conspiracy against CART.

As for some mythical trophy for world superiority between NASCAR and open wheel racing, it doesn't exist and never will. NASCAR's popularity has nothing to do with open wheel racing's popularity or lack of it. When Long Beach arrives, there's probably a NASCAR race in competition on TV but there's also the Masters and probably major league baseball. The kind of racing people choose ain't the only game in town.

you got to ask yourself why champcar/cart is not racing at any NASCAR/Bill France owned tracks and IRL is.

[indycool]

Well, let's see:

--CART ditched Nazareth, it eventually went to the IRL, and closed.
--CART and Fontana got in a snit over the '03 season closer with the California wildfires and the money part still wasn't decided in the CART bankruptcy, eventually settled. The IRL and Fontana apparently got into a snit over scheduling and the IRL isn't running there, either.
--At Michigan, Heitzler didn't hear what he wanted to during negotiations, went to Cleveland and told the media that Michigan better step up. Michigan didn't enjoy his public negotiating and stepped out.
--Phoenix was an original CART track in 1979 and an original IRL track in 1996 and ISC didn't own the track either time. Neither series runs there now.
--Watkins Glen wasn't running EITHER series when the IRL scheduled there.
--Chicagoland is a partnership between ISC and IMS. Kansas is a new facility designed as a carbon copy of Chicagoland bythe IMS engineering staff.
--And I haven't heard either series trying to run Daytona or Darlington or Martinsville or Talladega.
Next.....

[macdaddy]

Robin Miller:
ESPN's Jerry Punch promised on his radio show there would be one series by 2007 and he would never say that without some good information.

Derrick Walker:
We so desperately need each other it isn't funny. Tony can't be happy with where the IRL is right now and we certainly can't be satisfied with Champ Car. There's no better time than right now because misery loves company.

Commentary.

(What I continually find ironic is how the press agrees that we should "leave them alone", and make sure to mention it in every article they write!)

[Amar7605]

IMHO, all we can hope for is TG and Kalkovhen talking to one another. This is showing more promise than when CART existed.

[JohnSSC]

Sort of ironic, I suppose, but the Press is supposed to report the news and this is news. The Press is not who leaked the story in the first place. That came, apparently, from inside. It remains to be seen what happens.

In any event if the merger does not happen I suspect that it will have far less to do with an article appearing in Autoweek than the inability to work out some of the more formidable details.

[marcus]

I have recieved a PM about this and Im willing to give it another go.

Lets see how we go this time