|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
21 Feb 2006, 20:31 (Ref:1528304) | #1 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,958
|
Merger talks again?
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../60221006/1001
Not much to say about this, other than a merger can only be positive. Will it happen, who knows, but it is better to know what is happening, than not. |
||
|
22 Feb 2006, 22:25 (Ref:1529381) | #2 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,125
|
Okay. Here's the deal...
Many times over the past we've had threads very similar to this one. And every single time they had quickly degraded to mud-slinging matches. Therefore we've been closing them before they really get a chance to begin. However, nobody can argue that the topic isn't worthy of discussion. Marcus and I have decided that we've got a mighty-fine group of members here, and we're going to allow this thread to continue. But keep in mind that it's going to be under a very watchful eye. There will be no character-assasinations. If you don't like TG or KK, fine. That's your right. But defammation will not be tolerated. Don't bother bashing one series or the other. Consider this post as your unofficial warning. Anything from here-on-in will be dealt with quickly. And if this thread degrades like the others have it will be closed, and no others will be allowed until there is an official press release about unification. [/mod-hat] Last edited by macdaddy; 22 Feb 2006 at 22:55. |
||
__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus! |
22 Feb 2006, 23:00 (Ref:1529423) | #3 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,125
|
I must admit that I didn't see this coming. Not now.
Firstly, you'll find two related stories here and here. What follows is what my reply would have been, after having only read Fogelhund's opening link. I PM'd this to he and Marcus. Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus! |
23 Feb 2006, 02:17 (Ref:1529526) | #4 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,963
|
I hope it happens. As soon as possible.
|
||
__________________
Upon entry into the Bathurst 1000, it should be mandatory to view the compelling "Moffat - Man and the Mountain" film |
23 Feb 2006, 02:35 (Ref:1529538) | #5 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,739
|
Funny thing is I think the biggest winners out of any re-unification would be TG and KK.
I like the idea of leaving them alone to do it and I'll enjoy the races in the meanwhile. |
||
__________________
A torrential afternoon practice session in Watkins Glen saw Villeneuve out-qualify everyone. By 11 seconds.Scheckter stated: "I scared myself rigid that day, I thought I had to be quickest. Then I saw Gilles's time and - I still don't really understand how it was possible. Eleven seconds !" |
23 Feb 2006, 03:19 (Ref:1529545) | #6 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 257
|
Thanks to Marcus and Macdaddy for letting this tread open. I will do my part. I personnally have mixed emotions about a merger. I guess it would depend on the end product.
|
||
|
23 Feb 2006, 05:34 (Ref:1529576) | #7 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 10
|
As long as Houston stays on the schedule, I'll be happy. It's finally back after five years and I don't want it to go away again.
|
||
|
23 Feb 2006, 11:00 (Ref:1529735) | #8 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,073
|
I think the impetus here is from sponsors such as Honda, Cosworth (Ford badging) and Bridgestone. They - at least Honda and Bridgestone - have expressed their desire to see one series as from marketing perspectives it makes much more sense for them. While talks may be going on at the "Top" (KK & TG) I get the feeling the charge is being led from the sponsors behind the scenes.
We have, however, been teased before... |
||
__________________
"He's still a young guy and I always think, slightly morbidly, the last thing you learn is how to die and at the end of the day everybody learns every single day." - The Ever-Cheerfull Ron Dennis on Lewis Hamilton. |
23 Feb 2006, 11:24 (Ref:1529749) | #9 | |
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 394
|
A unified serie is the best way to secure the future of us o-w racing.
I just don't think that they are even close to a merger, based on the info KK gave in the interview (actually nothing apart from we've talked), the response of what's his name from the irl and the lack of response of TG and Forsythe. If they were close to a merger imo there would be other responses. Anyway, we'll see. |
|
|
23 Feb 2006, 11:35 (Ref:1529756) | #10 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,419
|
Quote:
David Phillips' column at the SpeedTV.com site, which macdaddy linked to above, is a really good take on the situation. And I sure hope Autoweek's article hasn't damaged the ongoing process. At the same time, as Phillips writes, there will always be some people that would rather see the series stay apart due to their own interests, and who knows what those people might do in order to sabotage any attempts at getting the band back together? In any case I hope the media grants KK's wish, that they should leave him and TG alone. |
||
|
23 Feb 2006, 11:48 (Ref:1529763) | #11 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
|
I think it'd be interesting to know who leaked the story. It would seem, from the quotes from KK and Nation, that the story is VERY premature. IMO, it was probably leaked by someone who doesn't have anything to gain from a merger, or has something to lose.
|
|
|
23 Feb 2006, 14:19 (Ref:1529872) | #12 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 238
|
It's the only way forward, IMO, to save North American open wheel racing. Sooner or later, both sides are going to see this. 2007 is the perfect time to do this, with the new chassis etc. Fingers crossed.
|
||
__________________
President, MMS, Canada |
23 Feb 2006, 15:15 (Ref:1529888) | #13 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,958
|
Let's put away the politics, and the dislike of people, teams, and series for a bit.
Here is a reality. The IRL currently has the following teams that have been somewhat competitive; Andretti Green, Fernadez Racing, Ganassi Racing, Marlboro Team Penske, Rahal Letterman. Then the drivers; Wheldon, Kanaan, Hornish, Franchitti, Sharp, Castroneves, Carpentie, Dixon, Enge, Briscoe... Champcar's teams; Forsythe, Newman Haas, Ru Sport, PKV and so on.... Then Champcar's drivers; Bourdais, Tracy, Servia, Glock, Wilson, Allmendinger, Tagliani, Dominguez, Da Matta, Ranger, Weirdheim, Junqueira... .and so on... Just think about all of these teams, and drivers on the same grid, for any race that you can think about. Tell me that isn't something you wouldn't want to see? This grid at the Glen, or Road America, or Indy... think about that. As a long term fan, who has slowly become less interested, I think this would be great, and I absolutely would consider going to more races again. Of course the sponsors and manufacturers are pushing/begging for this. Honda doesn't want to be racing against themselves, and with a new chassis coming on line, no series would have any advantage over the other. It just makes perfect sense, and is the perfect time to do so. I hope that all of those people who are passionate about their series, can put aside their feelings, and understand that this is what is best for what they love, and accept the others back. Working together, Open Wheel can really move forward much faster, than in working apart. While I hold no false hopes that this time it will happen now, I do understand that it has to happen somehow, at some point.. this just can't go on the way it has, someone, or both continue to lose. |
||
|
23 Feb 2006, 15:24 (Ref:1529892) | #14 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
|
I agree with you, Fogelhund....
I would add Panther to that list as well....they would be there...and they are quite competitive.... The politics of the whole thing has bothered me for a long time.... and with the players (teams and drivers) you have named in that partial list, open-wheel racing would put on one of the best (if not the best) racing shows in the world..... I like watching both of them now...even though they are separate... But I would love to see all of them on one grid in one unified series. |
||
__________________
Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
23 Feb 2006, 16:16 (Ref:1529926) | #15 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,147
|
Quote:
Phillips tries to say that there might be good that comes out of the story breaking because it will put pressure on them to get the deal done. Balderdash. The pressure we fans bring to bear will be only through our attendance (or non-attendance) and TV viewing (or ignoring). The market has shown both of them that we uncommitted fans find something in their two versions of NA OW racing to be lacking. Us reading the story and saying "yeah, that" isn't going to change or speed up the process. However, I can see that this will provide some impetus for those who are vested in the existence of the split - whether it be the idiots who flame the fans on the forums, or business rivals, or small fish in either series who would lose out when the competitive level jumps due to the merger - to up their efforts to sabotage any friendship that might lead to a proper business relationship. I don't see this leak as good at all. I see the ultimate solution of one series as inevitable, and I'd prefer the merger to happen rather than both series stripmined of resources in a "last series standing" battle. I'm optimistic about the content of the news, but I'm distressed that it's escaped. |
|||
__________________
... Since all men live in darkness, who believes something is not a test of whether it is true or false. I have spent years trying to get people to ask simple questions: What is the evidence, and what does it mean? -Bill James |
23 Feb 2006, 17:33 (Ref:1529979) | #16 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
|
Good post and thoughts, p-c.
The pressures for unification are much more complex internally for both series than it is for the flamers on the boards and have more to do with operational effort and thinkin' than the egos of TG and KK which are bandied about by those flamers who think that way. From Nation's comments in Robin Miller's piece at Speed, something like "it depends on the chemistry between Tony and Kevin but they're talking and that's good," they may be in the process of finding some common ground to deal with all of those complexities. That's going to be a long process, and this story breaking as it did, IMO, WAY WAY prematurely, can't help either KK or TG from keeping their eye on the ball to come up with a solution. It just threw them both into the public fishbowl and we'll have endless people, including media, trying to get to each one and cause disruption to that process. At this point the story is out and done and rumors will be rampant every time either one of them sneezes, but I expect neither will have any comment to staff or anyone else while they continue to pursue options. |
|
|
23 Feb 2006, 21:04 (Ref:1530116) | #17 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 161
|
Kalkhoven and George are both shrewd operators, if indeed this is a deal they want to do, additional attention from the media or fans is not going to derail it. If anything, the leak could help gauge interest from both fans and sponsors.
I was surprised to hear speculation centering on the Champcar chassis and engine being favored. But it was George's stated position initially to restrain CART's escalating costs, and the Panoz is the cheapest chassis. Both engine manufacturers have experience in both series, so that would probably go to the cheapest also. I don't think anyone in either series is evil, I just favor whoever gives me racing with right turns. |
||
__________________
Rinji news o moshiagemasu! Rinji news o moshiagemasu! Godzilla ga Ginza hoomen e mukatte imasu! Daishkyu hinan poope kudasai! Daishkyu hinan poope kudasai! |
23 Feb 2006, 21:13 (Ref:1530125) | #18 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,480
|
Quote:
"The latest round of merger talks between the two series came when a fax was leaked from IRL offices to US weekly magazine AutoWeek, stating that Kalkhoven and George had been skiing together, and were now in regular communication." |
||
__________________
"All this amateur analysis leads nowhere and is insignificant......So you waste hours, days, months, years of your life for what end? A bit of one-upmanship on the internet?" - Wilton969 |
23 Feb 2006, 22:46 (Ref:1530177) | #19 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
|
Yeah, let me get this straight:Autosport is reporting that, too.
So, Autoweek told Autosport and Malsher the source of its story was an IRL fax and then called Kevin Kalkhoven for a response, but clouded its sources in its own story with "third parties say" and so forth. Surrrrrrrrrre. |
|
|
23 Feb 2006, 23:27 (Ref:1530212) | #20 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 5,702
|
Let's have a look at some of the good that could come out of a merger. Just allow yourself to dream for a moment - imagine this for a "possible" 2007 season:
17 Venues (12 US, 2 Canada, 1 Mexico, 1 Australia, 1 Japan): Homestead St Petersburg Long Beach Motegi Indianapolis Milwaukee Cleveland Toronto Denver Chicagoland Michigan Edmonton Road America Watkins Glen Mexico City Surfers Paradise Texas Teams (30 cars): Andretti Green Racing Tony Kanaan Dario Franchitti Bryan Herta Dale Coyne Racing Giorgio Pantano Ryan Dalziel Fernandez Racing Scott Sharp Kosuke Matsuura Forsythe Championship Racing Paul Tracy Mario Dominguez HVM Ronnie Bremer Rodolfo Lavin Marlboro Team Penske Helio Castroneves Sam Hornish Jr Mi-Jack Conquest Racing Andrew Ranger Nelson Phillippe Newman/Haas Racing Sebastien Bourdais Bruno Junqueira Panther Racing Vitor Meira PKV Racing Katherine Legge Ryan Briscoe Rahal Letterman Racing Danica Patrick Buddy Rice Rocketsports Racing Richard Lyons Oriol Servia RuSport Justin Wilson AJ Allmendinger Target Chip Ganassi Racing Dan Wheldon Scott Dixon Team Australia Alex Tagliani Will Power I know there most likely would not be 30 cars, and the composition of teams would change severely - but this is the sort of quality grid that could be put together. Who could not be excited by that ......!? |
|
|
24 Feb 2006, 01:13 (Ref:1530278) | #21 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,760
|
IRL events I followed reasonably closely following the split, but it was CART that I was interested in. I would faithfully follow it: until, that is, I started drifting away from it in the 2001 season. The 2002-2005 seasons have been particualry barren, with IRL at this point nearly dropping entirely off of the radar (but not quite).
During this period (2002-2005) I have watched some events, both IRL and CART/ChampCar, but not very many: approximately 4/5 CART/ChampCar and 1/2 IRL races, and, sadly, with no "fire" involved (which there was back in the day). This year, I have resolved to stop being so lazy (especially as I am in Canada now). So, as a result, I am going to watch every single round of IRL and Champcar. This, by now, immensely ignorant individual, with regards ChampCar/IRL, would LOVE to see unification. An already scarce, scattered audience would be much better served without such conflicting interests and forces. I am now having to do some "studying" to get myself somewhat up to speed in preparation for the upcoming season. |
||
|
24 Feb 2006, 04:53 (Ref:1530353) | #22 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,480
|
Quote:
|
||
__________________
"All this amateur analysis leads nowhere and is insignificant......So you waste hours, days, months, years of your life for what end? A bit of one-upmanship on the internet?" - Wilton969 |
24 Feb 2006, 07:55 (Ref:1530454) | #23 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,065
|
Okay, let's say that a merger is possible. Can a Champ Car/IRL unified series compete with the NASCAR juggernaut? Will a combined series be able to get the sponsorship dollars and TV ratings?
Coyote9999 made a good point earlier. What will be the end product? Will it be something that the fans will like? For example, will the fans like the choices in tracks? Lots of questions to ponder. |
||
__________________
Cuz trucks need love, too! |
24 Feb 2006, 09:34 (Ref:1530520) | #24 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,456
|
Quote:
At least the IRL's TV contract is with one network; trying to find out what channel is airing the next CCWS race (and whether it will be live or tape delay) is absolutely maddening. If open wheel can have a set order in their schedule, such as an oval race followed by a road race in two-week intervals, preferrably with one network and one cable outlet, then viewers can expect when they can turn on the TV and catch a race. Another question I have is, why not take a prospective merger to consider making a considerable change in the regs? Champ car has been running with 2.65L V8s since the early 1970s. I understand that it has been a successful and venerable formula, but it has been some 35 years now. Isn't it about time that a curveball is thrown into the mix, so that everyone begins with a fresh start? Don't do it right away, of course: say, use the existing equipment for a couple of years, then go into 2009 with a new formula. I know that purists would go crazy at the thought, but a new engine formula would solidify the turning of a page. I'm not even saying to lose the turbos. Just change the capacity, or the configuration. There's always the question about the schedule, as well. Right now, there are 15 Champ Car dates and 14 IndyCar dates, equaling 28 venues holding open wheel races in 2006 (Milwaukee hosts both series). A merged series would be able to sustain around 20 races at most, which is going to leave some tracks and promoters out in the cold. Ideally, the oval and road circuit races would be split 50/50, meaning ten races of each variety. The must-haves are Indy and Long Beach, without question. The next list of important races are probably the international races of significance (Mexico City, Toronto, Surfers Paradise, and Motegi), then likely the oval races at Milwaukee (Champ Car's date, the week after Indy), Michigan, and Texas, and possibly the airport in Cleveland. That gives a backbone of ten races, five of them ovals, five of them road circuits. Then you have to think about the regional markets. Certainly, one of the Bay Area races (Sears Point or San Jose) will be deemed unnecessary. Would the fans in the Pacific Northwest travel all the way to Edmonton to watch a race, or those in the northern Rockies and plains trek to Portland? Would the Watkins Glen or Montreal audiences cross over to New Hampshire? Is it wiser for your Southern race to be held in Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, or Birmingham? Does the fact that it's the best road course in the U.S. justify having a Road America event when Milwaukee has a race, and likely will Chicago? Could the owners of Pocono Raceway be persuaded in repaving to make it suitable for open-wheel speeds and possibly consolidate the Mid-Atlantic market? If Monterrey and Fort Worth have races, does Houston need one two? What about Vegas? Phoenix? Kansas City? St. Louis? Kentucky? Richmond? Can there be a decent time to fit in Fontana? Finally, what is the pitch, the catch, the gimmick? What does open wheel have that NASCAR doesn't? I'm not in advertising, so I'll leave that for the professionals to figure out. |
|||
__________________
"There are some players who have psychologists, sportologists. I smoke." --golfer Angel Cabrera, when asked how he kept his composure whilst winning the 2007 U.S. Open, beating Tiger Woods by one stroke. |
24 Feb 2006, 10:35 (Ref:1530575) | #25 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,419
|
Excellent post Fish_Flake
When it comes to an unified schedule I'd be more than happy as long as Road America, Watkins Glen, Indy and Texas are on it As for open wheel's gimmick, I think it would be better for an unified open wheel championship to concentrate on doing their own thing, rather than worrying about how to 'beat' NASCAR. |
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Merger A Done Deal! | TedN | ChampCar World Series | 5 | 9 May 2006 07:42 |
Gerry talks F1 Merger | The Snout | ChampCar World Series | 20 | 24 Feb 2003 06:11 |