THAT first corner accident!

[Gt_R]

Whoops..i've opened a can of worms!

But keep Ralf/JPM-bashing at the door before you enter.

Yepp, the first corner accident.

Da Matta blames Ralf for causing his retirement.

Ralf knows it's JPM's fault for hitting him.

The press blames JPM for causing an accident.



JPM blames (and "waved" at) Oliver Panis for hitting him and causing the accident.

Williams kept mum but is obviously disappointed with their driver's rashness.

Some blamed Rubens (?!) for starting the accident

Result? THAT accident

What's your take?

Should Ralf be blamed for Da Matta's exit and why?
Should JPM be blamed for Ralf's exit and why?
Is Oliver and Rubens to be blamed (ie did they do anything unusual)?
Could it be avoided by any individuals involved?

[Logrence]

I blame Michael Schumacher. Give me a moment and I'll think of some half-baked reason why everything is his fault and why consequently he is the spawn of Satan. With a big chin.

[Gt_R]

I actually wanted to blame JV because his rumoured return has unsettled the drivers

But i've heard what both Williams drivers gotta say, and two things caught my attention.

(1)Unusual = Ralf did not launch into a mad screaming...he's quite cool about it despite forced into retirement (perhaps he knew something about his contract?)

(2)JPM blamed somebody else for the accident. I've read his version, and watched the tapes again to justify it. Oddly, JPM locked his own brakes and hit Ralf into a spin without the "aid" of Panis as he claimed. And RB basically braked as late as his situation allowed.



Doesn't this first corner quite resemble the one in Monza in the sense that it sends cars travelling highspeed into a very tight first corner..usually causing trouble...shouldn't something be done about it?

[garcon]

The obvious (i.e. plain to see) catalyst of the whole thing was JPM locking up into turn 1. We can only speculate as to why - he just out-braked himself, Rubens braked earlier than he expected, someone else braked and turned in early or what - we can't tell from the vt. JPM, locked up, went straight on into Ralf. CDM got stuck on the outside of Ralf, but remained in Ralf's blindspot, so when Ralf booted it to try and get clear of/through the gravel, he went straight over CDM's unseen front wheel.

Both Ralf and CDM were unlucky, particularly CDM as he only got collected after the first accident had already happened.

JPM locking up was the main cause, but rather than lay the "blame" at his door I'd call it a racing incident - a slight mistake from JPM but nothing serious and certainly nothing punishable. Let's face it, it's pretty much always a mirace if they all get through turn one unscathed, so there's no need to go on a blame hunt when they don't.

[Mattracer]

Going on the footage available, you'd have to say that JPM outbraked himself and ran into Ralf whilst trying to avoid running into Rubens.

[Gt_R]

Nah..it'd be silly if FIA does call for punishment. Racing incidents always happen and to cry foul over every come together would only take away the cheap thrills of drivers coming together...

As they say opposites attract...something about the 2 Williams seem to pull them into each other at every given chance.

[Red]

Hmm, I haven't read that CDM blamed Ralf. I can't see why he should. Ralf had absolutely no control of his car at that stage.

[garcon]

Originally posted by Mattracer
Going on the footage available, you'd have to say that JPM outbraked himself and ran into Ralf whilst trying to avoid running into Rubens.

That's true - he did seem to make an automotic move to avoid Rubens, which perhaps sent him more directly into Ralf... You can't actually blame him for that, almost certainly a subconscious move that anyone who's about to hit something would make...

Can't help wondering though - do you think when Monty got back to the pits, Patrick Head might've said, "Why the didn't you punt Rubens instead of Ralf?!?!??!"

[Adam43]

THAT

OTT in my opinion!
Lets look at each part:
JPM locked up. A traditional cold front tyres brake and try to turn in understeer moment. A mistake. Drivers had been doing that all weekend, but of course not on the first lap.
Ralf caught up in it.Unlucky. A traditional first corner situation
CDM caught up in it.Double unlucky. Ralf final getting off the track did it for him. As well as the driving over his front wheel. Maybe Ralf could have avoided this, but it is difficult to see exactly how cars are intertwined with these cockpits.
JPM waving Driver annoyed waves incorrectly. He looks a little bit of a foul, but judging him on this heat of the moment reaction, with hindsight is a little unfair.
Da Matta blaming Ralf He obviously hadn't seen it all when he said that and I think he was mainly annoyed about the final driving over his car at the end.
Williams well they've seen it all before. They've been in F1 for decades.
Rubens Did he squeeze Ralf onto Montoya, sorry I don't really know what he could have done wrong. Whatever it was just caused by the closeness of cars. First lap its like that a small mistake can always result in that.
avoidable Well yes, in so much as most accidents are avoidable. However the only real way to avoid them is to stop racing.

So that'll be basically agreeing with garcon!

[garcon]

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by garcon
That's true - he did seem to make an automotic move to avoid Rubens, which perhaps sent him more directly into Ralf... You can't actually blame him for that, almost certainly a subconscious move that anyone who's about to hit something would make...

Can't help wondering though - do you think when Monty got back to the pits, Patrick Head might've said, "Why the didn't you punt Rubens instead of Ralf?!?!??!"

Maybe Patrick Head is past caring at this point in time.

About Ralf or JPM.

[Gt_R]

Yeah..it'd be more constructive if he takes Rubens off instead!

RB is ahead of both Williams, and i for one don't think he can be blamed.. the footage showed that he had to slow simply because the car in front of him is braking hard for the first corner too. Thing is, for a first corner as tight as this, the cars further behind can't expect to use the same braking point as they do during normal runs because the bottleneck is slowing all cars. And such a problem is quite obvious in races such as Austria, Monza etc...so is there anything the track designers can keep in mind to improve first corner spectacle without putting drivers, especially midfielders, in such a situation?

I feel a bit sore that we are robbed off a potential good show from both Williams who could have put in a great result yesterday.

[RWC]

It was a mistake by JPM
Just a racing mistake,nothing more
...but one of those things that you'd worry about if he kept making them

[Bononi]

Originally posted by Red
Hmm, I haven't read that CDM blamed Ralf. I can't see why he should. Ralf had absolutely no control of his car at that stage.

He said on TV shortly after the accident. The comentators made a joke about how Ralf is upseting everybody in the grid. But it was JPM's fault IMHO.

[Peter Mallett]

Actually I thought Ralf tagged a car as it went past on the outside before CDM turned up. I think it was Button. That means CDM was aware of the situation and Ralf with nowhere to go was an innocent party.

JPM was the catalyst and he set of the chain of events. It could have been brain fade or RB slowing a bit earlier than expected. Who knows?

One of them things.

[Bononi]

s*** happens...

[Adam43]

sock, does indeed, happen.

[Sodemo]

Yeah, that one was JPM's fault I have to admit, he was totally to blame there...

[BootsOntheSide]

I don't think Rubens, Ralf or anyone else can be blamed for this one. Unfortunate mistake from Montoya, but this sort of thing isn't unknown - Fisichella hit Sato at the start here 2 years ago. It's not as if Ralf hasn't caused other accidents this season.

[Wrex]

Monty screwed up, no question, butit was just a driver error. Certainly nothing he needs punishment for.


Personally, I think we are getting carried away with these penalties. The more we penalise, the less racing we are going to see.


*excuse my hypocracy as I go to another thread to call for a penalty for Sato*

[Kirk]

Agreed Wrex. If anything should result from this, I'd like to see that 1st turn improved as it is notorious for incidents.

[dcp2685]

Quite frankly i wasn't so impressed by JPM's driving during that incident. The moment he locked up he cranked the wheel to the right causing him to understeer. This understeer when for a sizable distance. Anyone who knows about understeering situations knows that in that moment, you unwind the steering wheel to get some grip then turn back into the corner at a slower speed. He just cranked it even more when ralf was approaching, with no chance to safely make the corner...and thus continually to understeer/slide.

He consequently hit ralf after his second attempt at turning into the corner. Had he had unwinded and slowed i think they would have all been fine.

[Adam43]

You are right about how to correct for understeer in that situation. However it is more for situations where there aren't nineteen other cars around. When the Williams regained grip he needed to immediately bite to turn right to avoid Ralf. If he straighted the wheel and waited for grip to come back before re-applying lock then it probably wouldn't have worked either. Split second stuff. My point being in most circumstances you are right, but at the start of the race things can't always go to plan.

That is why most drivers got away with it for the rest of the race. Indeed it is why Michael could apply that technique in a controlled anticipated way on his pole lap. All that happened to him was he missed the apex by a couple of feet.

[f1manoz]

JPM blew it. Racing incident. Don't see what the big fuss about. Frankly the incident was rather small compared to what could happen in that corner. It's a rather ridiculous first corner.

[freud]

I think there were a few too many over-ambitious drivers at the first corner, Juan Pablo probably the most. After all they were fighting for a position.