[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Driver, team management and a few other items are excluded from the budget cap. Please actually read the limits proposed, the reason for MB and Ferrari complaints is they would make almost 50% for Mercedes and 40% for Ferrari of the workforce redundant to meet the cap.

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This will sound callous given it would impact the livelihood of a number of people, but that type of reduction is the point of a budget cap. Smaller teams can’t afford to be as huge as a Mercedes or Ferrari. To make budget caps work, it’s clear that large teams should end up “loosing” more than “winning” when this is done. Which of course the idea of powerful entities giving up power is the main challenge with putting caps in place.

Richard

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This will sound callous given it would impact the livelihood of a number of people, but that type of reduction is the point of a budget cap. Smaller teams can’t afford to be as huge as a Mercedes or Ferrari. To make budget caps work, it’s clear that large teams should end up “loosing” more than “winning” when this is done. Which of course the idea of powerful entities giving up power is the main challenge with putting caps in place.

Richard

I'm in full agreement with you, it sucks that the top teams have become so huge. Believe a few articles have estimated MB, Ferrari and Red Bull each employ more than the remaining teams combined. Someone has to lose and it's probable people will lose jobs, likely their current position and they'll end up at another smaller team, but I think to keep F1 even at it's current status cuts are needed. I think a great many of the F1 personnel are the tops of their fields so other jobs will be calling but to leave F1 will likely hurt.

Also, it will be tough to prove that Renault, Ferrari, MB aren't hiding R&D in the street car or other racing program division. It's a can of worms but I think one the FIA and FOM have to tackle.

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[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This will sound callous given it would impact the livelihood of a number of people, but that type of reduction is the point of a budget cap. Smaller teams can’t afford to be as huge as a Mercedes or Ferrari. To make budget caps work, it’s clear that large teams should end up “loosing” more than “winning” when this is done. Which of course the idea of powerful entities giving up power is the main challenge with putting caps in place.

Richard

reducing the staff size is a difficult one and certainly may seem callous given we know these people have families and livelihoods to consider...

but a reduction in staff has other benefits. greater competition for jobs which all things being equal should leave us with a higher quality of staff remaining and with an exodus from one team to another could speed up the flow of ideas and technology.

some quality signings by the smaller teams as staff is shed from Merc and Ferrari could lead to faster gains by those smaller teams.

and if the rules climate is right, a new manu/team (or even Renault and Honda) can come in and pick up some of that redundant staff as well...so net effect of those losing jobs may not necessarily be as bad as 50% of Merc and 40% of Ferrari.

[S griffin]

Really some teams can cope with less staff, but it’s good to see so many jobs. I could see Merc shedding a few, but not many. Ferrari though will always have a big workforce. It would be nice to have more staff for teams at the back or for teams coming in. I don’t know of we’d see more manufacturers though

[chillibowl]

new mandatory helmet design introduced by the FIA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPxvlVhiZ7U

looks pretty cool despite the smaller visor. bit surprised they havent introduced any biometric sensors inside of it akin to what they have in the new gloves.

maybe with the gloves any additional sensors become redundant but still a very cool new piece of kit.

[F1Guy]

New grid procedure from this weekend’s Canadian Grand Prix onwards. Kimi Raikkonen is said to be absolutely thrilled.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...edure-1044933/

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

new mandatory helmet design introduced by the FIA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPxvlVhiZ7U

looks pretty cool despite the smaller visor. bit surprised they havent introduced any biometric sensors inside of it akin to what they have in the new gloves.

maybe with the gloves any additional sensors become redundant but still a very cool new piece of kit.

The smaller visor actually looks a lot cooler to me, reminds me of the 70's style helmets.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

new mandatory helmet design introduced by the FIA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPxvlVhiZ7U

looks pretty cool despite the smaller visor. bit surprised they havent introduced any biometric sensors inside of it akin to what they have in the new gloves.

maybe with the gloves any additional sensors become redundant but still a very cool new piece of kit.

It will be interesting to see what WEC drivers make of the smaller visor.

Nice bit of advertising for Bell.

[S griffin]

Need to continue to improve safety and this new helmet looks state of the art in that respect

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

new mandatory helmet design introduced by the FIA.

Very considerate of the FIA to provide extra business to the helmet manufacturers.


When percolated down to grass-roots competitors (as stated in the press release) will probably be yet another nail in the coffin for those already struggling for budgets to enjoy low cost racing.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It will be interesting to see what WEC drivers make of the smaller visor.

I am not a fan of the smaller view-port, but understand why they did that. In the past I have personally liked larger view-port helmets and will continue to buy them when available.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

When percolated down to grass-roots competitors (as stated in the press release) will probably be yet another nail in the coffin for those already struggling for budgets to enjoy low cost racing.

For the article listed on the FIA site, they don't say or imply this will be required for used in lower series.

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-reveals...tive-helmet-f1

It is my understanding that even helmets based upon the previous FIA 8860 standard (aka super helmets) are VERY expensive. So I expect grass roots racing will continue to not require this level of expensive helmet and that other standards organizations like SFI and Snell will maintain their rating system and that manufactures will provide options at various cost and safety levels. Frankly requiring a helmet like this for grass roots racing will kill racing as we know it.

It is interesting to note that in the internal FIA publication "Auto" that discusses the development new standard, they mention that the previous iteration was an extension of the existing Snell standard while the new one breaks from Snell and is a stand-alone standard. Logically it makes sense to not rely upon other standards when defining your own, but I also wonder if there may be a break between Snell and FIA. Especially given they are now becoming direct competitors.

https://www.fia.com/multimedia/publication/auto-22

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

For the article listed on the FIA site, they don't say or imply this will be required for used in lower series.

Richard

Culled from Motorsport article:

It will be mandatory in F1 from 2019 and in other championships soon after, said the FIA, which worked with helmet manufacturers Stilo, Bell Racing, Schuberth and Arai during the research phase.

In the UK, the MSA has a nasty tendency to follow the FIA in their requirements. Also a number of other European MSA's mandate the top level of safety equipment when it percolates down from F1 for non-FIA sanctioned events.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Culled from Motorsport article:





In the UK, the MSA has a nasty tendency to follow the FIA in their requirements. Also a number of other European MSA's mandate the top level of safety equipment when it percolates down from F1 for non-FIA sanctioned events.

Do other series require the current F1 required helmet? It seems they would only require the new in the cases where the previous generation was required.

[Akrapovic]

Whilst the opening is a bit small, given that most single seater helmets have reflective visors, could you not just make the visor the same size as the current helmet, and then visually it'll look identical to the spectators?

The slit to look through is smaller, but vertical vision hasn't really been an issue. The halo and LMP1 A Pillars will probably cause more issues than this.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

In the UK, the MSA has a nasty tendency to follow the FIA in their requirements. Also a number of other European MSA's mandate the top level of safety equipment when it percolates down from F1 for non-FIA sanctioned events.

The info is the same as listed on the FIA site. So no mention of pushing it down to smaller series. This new helmet spec is just a new version of the existing FIA spec that has been around for years. Do these UK/EU series already require drivers to use the FIA 8860 spec?

What is not clear to me is how different the 2010 vs. 2018 version of the spec is. For example the FIA site has a list of 8860-2010 helmets and some are open face (which I assume is a no-no with the 2018 spec?) 8860-2010 helmets seem to be around $1K US minimum. I expect given more stringent requirements that the 2018 spec will drive up cost.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

At the moment, all National meetings run under the control of the MSA require the spec 8860-2004 (valid until 2020), 8860-2010 or 8859-2015.

[Peter Mallett]

For anything above Nat B we have to run full FIA approved suits, underwear and gloves. Helmets must comply either with FIA or Snell requirements. Seats and belts are also as per FIA requirements. So, if this is mandated it will overrule the current standards and we will be forced to buy new helmets. That said I'm sure there will be various grades, as there are now, so a full Formula 1 grade helmet won't necessarily be required. That said it is still an additional cost, which, as Mike asserts, will drive more people away from the sport.

[Mike Harte]

Richard, to add to my and Peter's posts, the current cost of the FIA 8860 helmets being sold in a well known emporium in the UK start at just under $2,500.

[Peter Mallett]

Actually $2057.00 to $5850.00

[Mike Harte]

Peter, is it possible that you didn't include the dreaded VAT?

[Peter Mallett]

Indeed it is.

[F1Guy]

Are the FiA going to mandate these new helmets for F1 media from now on too?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Richard, to add to my and Peter's posts, the current cost of the FIA 8860 helmets being sold in a well known emporium in the UK start at just under $2,500.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Actually $2057.00 to $5850.00

The absolute cheapest I could find via online search in US was approx $1K US, but most were in the $2-5K US range as you both say. So they are expensive for sure.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

The recommended retail price for a Bell HP7, which conforms to FIA 8860-2010 and SNELL SA2015 is € 2950.00 + Tax.

http://www.bellhelmets.eu/helmets/advanced/hp7.html

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The recommended retail price for a Bell HP7, which conforms to FIA 8860-2010 and SNELL SA2015 is € 2950.00 + Tax.

http://www.bellhelmets.eu/helmets/advanced/hp7.html

Holy smoke, it must be nice to have a governing body mandating the use of your product!

Wonder what the actual production cost of one of these is ? € 100.00?

Perhaps the FIA should be batch buying these and distributing them to the members, it is a club after all.