Women in Circuit Racing

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by wnut

Well said!


Leanne Tander holds the F3 lap record for Phillip Island set in 2008!

Again short term, Leanne has the ability but the bigger question is what Championship has she ever won?

In 2008 she had the best car in the field and could drive quickly but still didnt win the championship?

[Umai Naa]

I've read this thread with great interest, but I'm having a hard time distinguishing whether you're asking or telling us why it hasn't happened.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

I've read this thread with great interest, but I'm having a hard time distinguishing whether you're asking or telling us why it hasn't happened.

Hi Umai,
Thank you for interest & contribution to this long going thread.

I am mostly asking, but also counter debating, not telling just voicing an opinion.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Again short term, Leanne has the ability but the bigger question is what Championship has she ever won?

In 2008 she had the best car in the field and could drive quickly but still didnt win the championship?

When people remember drivers over the years, they tend to remember them for the championships or major races they've won over the years, and not fastest lap times. Leanne' probably going to get remembered along the lines of "...isn't she Garth's wife who had a crack racing before having a couple of kids with him..." She'll probably get forgotten all together if she doesn't come back racing in some form.


I'll add my two cents..... I'm all for women having a go in motorsport and trying to break what is one of the last male dominated domains in the world. But, if you look at the dinosaurs whom roam the pit paddocks of this country, women will never get taken seriously by them and will always be treated trophies and so forth. It's going to take generations before we see any change in this country, and the world, before we see more than one token female racing in a category.

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Well Eduardo you said it yourself, What a load of rubbish.

Alissa Camplin is a World Champion athlete in a completely different sport and probably does have a great core strength,good on her for it but could she do it for 40-60 odd laps or more along with the G forces,mental concentration & speed that goes with it when at best she would do it for about 15 seconds at most when she does her stuff, there is no comparison there.

The female athletes you speak of are probably focused, dedicated and massively competitive but again could they do it for 40-60 odd laps or more along with the G forces & speed that goes with it, females are very competitive in short term endurance's but suffer badly in longer events.

As you say, very very few females have forged excellent racing careers over some years, the ones that have, have had very good results but only ONE to the best of my knowledge has ever won a reasonable championship (respects to Desire Wilson) & NONE have ever won a Major World or Country Championship & in this day and age they never will.

They suffer tokenism in Motor Racing because the people who know, know that at the end of the day a female will just not cut it in the long run, they haven't bar a few got the physical or mental attributes (how ever nice) to do it, short term yes long term no.

Wow, in 2012 this is still an attitude.

Who on earth could take my comparison as an aerial skier becoming a race driver.

My point was - could women get themselves fit enough, strong enough and be brave enough to be successful racing car drivers - yes, without a shadow of a doubt.

What has not yet been achieved is a world champion. One day it will happen.

Women have been successful, but they have been a rarity. To be a champion in any major, competitive category is a rarity. The odds of them being a woman, due to this rarity (which I addressed before) lengthens the odds considerably.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

My point was - could women get themselves fit enough, strong enough and be brave enough to be successful racing car drivers - yes, without a shadow of a doubt.

There's no doubting there abilities to train and be fit. It's the politics holding them back.....

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

Wow, in 2012 this is still an attitude.

Who on earth could take my comparison as an aerial skier becoming a race driver.

My point was - could women get themselves fit enough, strong enough and be brave enough to be successful racing car drivers - yes, without a shadow of a doubt.

What has not yet been achieved is a world champion. One day it will happen.

Women have been successful, but they have been a rarity. To be a champion in any major, competitive category is a rarity. The odds of them being a woman, due to this rarity (which I addressed before) lengthens the odds considerably.

What rubbish !!
In the hundred odd years that motorsport has been around, there hasn't been any females even close to winning anything of major, repeat major significance, and by major significance I mean a world championship that has them as a household name.
And please, can we come up with a better argument than these crappy sexist allegations. It's got nothing to do with sexism. If women are good enough at anything they will succeed, but it all comes back to the differences between us. Did you fail your grade 8 biology class? Blokes are good at some things and women are better at others. Motorsport, like the football codes can be played by women, but they will never be able to compete against men on equal terms.
One day it will happen. Sorry Sunshine, I got news for you. It ain't happened yet and doesn't appear even close. There's no names even on the horizon.
I see this thread being dragged up every year at this time with the same arguments being rehashed, and the same non results.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

What rubbish !!
In the hundred odd years that motorsport has been around, there hasn't been any females even close to winning anything of major, repeat major significance, and by major significance I mean a world championship that has them as a household name.
And please, can we come up with a better argument than these crappy sexist allegations. It's got nothing to do with sexism. If women are good enough at anything they will succeed, but it all comes back to the differences between us. Did you fail your grade 8 biology class? Blokes are good at some things and women are better at others. Motorsport, like the football codes can be played by women, but they will never be able to compete against men on equal terms.
One day it will happen. Sorry Sunshine, I got news for you. It ain't happened yet and doesn't appear even close. There's no names even on the horizon.
I see this thread being dragged up every year at this time with the same arguments being rehashed, and the same non results.

Well said porsche91722, could not have said it better myself

[Buckshot]

But don't fret ladies, we're always gonna need Grid Girls.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

If women are good enough at anything they will succeed, but it all comes back to the differences between us. Did you fail your grade 8 biology class? Blokes are good at some things and women are better at others. Motorsport, like the football codes can be played by women, but they will never be able to compete against men on equal terms.

We didn't do motorsport in biology. The main difference in motorsport is equipment (no, not that equipment) and you can't win championships without access to that equipment. In AusV8, arguably that means you need a 888. Now out of the hundred* (figure snatched out of the air as a possible guide) of men who start at the bottom, two of them at any one time will have access to a vehicle capable of winning a championship. That hundred are gradually weedled down from those who don't have the talent, the money and the connections. If at the same time as those hundred of men start, five* (ditto) women also take up the sport then it's reasonable to use basic maths to work out it's going to take 20 times as long for one who has those abilities to come along. Since they're further disadvantaged in contacts by being automatically ignored by the many men who believe that women can never be good enough, lets say you're doubling the odds.

Now since the occupants of the 888 cars are likely to be around for a while, lets say 5 years, then you have two opportunities every half a decade to be in that car.

Simple maths.

100*5=500/2 = 1 in 250 chance for each man.
*20/½ = 1 in 10000 chance for each woman.

Pretty confident we haven't had 10,000 women trying, so the likelyhood is we haven't found the one who could do it yet.

Historically, I'd suggest a handful of ladies have proved they can compete on equal terms. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of these that they couldn't:

Patsy Burt
Pat Moss
Ellen Lohr
Lella Lombardi

There are bound to be others.

So it's down to desire and opportunity. I really think it's over-simplistic to suggest balls have a role, other than the talking variety

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The main difference in motorsport is equipment (no, not that equipment) and you can't win championships without access to that equipment.

Good point. When Leanne Tander was having a go in the Development Series, see was in one of GRM's old cars, which happen to one of only a handful of main series cars to just come into the category. She was able to stay up the pointy end. You just have to look at the cars now at the point end of the Development Series field and all of them are off-shoots of Main series teams.

Same goes for when she was racing in the Improved Production, she had one of the best prepared cars out there. I remember being at Sandown one time and she was battling for the lead, the only thing that stopped her was the fact the RX7 didn't have the extra grunt the V8 Commodore had down the back straight. Again, good machinary people!!

[GROUPA]

Always thought Michèle Mouton was very good and was only beaten by the great Walter Rohrl

Sure she had the quattro but she still had to drive the thing and she beat Mikkola, Blonmquist, Ekland etc...

[wnut]

Judy Charlton (Witter), became the first woman to win an SA National Championship, when she took the Formula Vee title in 1973.
She then went on, to share the 1977 Group One Championship, with Sarel Van Der Merwe.
Both major national championships!


Desire Wilson South African National Formula Ford Champion 1975 and 1976.

Leanne Ferrier lost the 2008 Australian F3 championship to James Winslow by 4 points (in the last round), Winslow (a much more experienced and better funded driver) was driving for team BRM the largest and best funded team in Australian F3 that was running 5 Dallara F307s against Ferrier's team single entry - you do the maths as to who had the greater advantage in terms of support!

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by wnut

Judy Charlton (Witter), became the first woman to win an SA National Championship, when she took the Formula Vee title in 1973.
She then went on, to share the 1977 Group One Championship, with Sarel Van Der Merwe.
Both major national championships!


Desire Wilson South African National Formula Ford Champion 1975 and 1976.

Leanne Ferrier lost the 2008 Australian F3 championship to James Winslow by 4 points (in the last round), Winslow (a much more experienced and better funded driver) was driving for team BRM the largest and best funded team in Australian F3 that was running 5 Dallara F307s against Ferrier's team single entry - you do the maths as to who had the greater advantage in terms of support!

With all due respects to the women mentioned above and congrats to them all, you would hardly call a South African Formula V or Formula Ford in the 70's a MAJOR Championship, lets get real.

As far as Leanne Ferrier/Tander goes, she was racing against the might of the BRM team in her single car but the difference was that she had the BEST car in the field by a longshot and still didnt win it, Winslow beat her in the last round, bottom line is that she had it for the taking and couldnt close it out.

[sizzle]

Please hurry up new year so that it is another 12 months before we go around in circles again!

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by sizzle

Please hurry up new year so that it is another 12 months before we go around in circles again!

[speedreader]

Keep an eye on a young lady in Europe, Beitske Visser, driving for Lotus GP in Formula 3, from what I hear she's doing a pretty good job. Early days yet but a possibility none the less...

[Umai Naa]

Is she pretty?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by GROUPA

Always thought Michèle Mouton was very good and was only beaten by the great Walter Rohrl

Sure she had the quattro but she still had to drive the thing and she beat Mikkola, Blonmquist, Ekland etc...

You had to be good just to keep those things on the road. Or even near it half the time. Saw them in action in the British forests several times and they were brutal.

[Oldtony]

Coming at this thing from a different angle has anyone thought through the fact that if Motor Racing DOES NOT achieve a status where women are attracted to the sport we can kiss goodbye to it being a major commercially sponsored sport in the medium term future.
I would go as far as saying that we don't see women winning major championships because the women just aren't interested in doping so. And that is not the ladies problem, it is ours as a sport.
We have already it seems dropped the perception of technical relevance to road cars in favour of spec series, and we are rapidly destroying the sports potential to develop more environmentally effective transportation systems in favour of lotys of noise and colour.
Some of the contributors on this thread now seem to be intent on denigrating over half the potential market our sponsors depend on for their sales.
If women can't win major championships there must be something wrong with the sport, not the women.

[Umai Naa]

Not entirely sure how relevent this is, but there's a lot of girls, probably close to 50%, competing Junior Speedway sedans across Australia. Some have been quite successful, but I'm yet to detirmine whether a female has held a state or national title in them. The other thing to note, is that once they're too old to race in juniors (once they're 18, they're no longer eligible), they don't often step up to other divisions. This could be related to budget, interest, or commitment.

There are a few ladies competing in the open-wheeler divisions like Sprint Cars and Compact Speedcars, and Speedway Karts (which are not really considered an entry-level division).

Now before anyone pipes up and says that Speedway in Australia isn't major, then why does it have several nationally-distributed publications dedicated to it, plus TV airtime, etc?

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Woolley

You had to be good just to keep those things on the road. Or even near it half the time. Saw them in action in the British forests several times and they were brutal.

Females seem to do very well in anything off road for some reason but this is against the clock in this type of event, not head to head stuff against other drivers like on a racing track.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Not entirely sure how relevent this is, but there's a lot of girls, probably close to 50%, competing Junior Speedway sedans across Australia. Some have been quite successful, but I'm yet to detirmine whether a female has held a state or national title in them. The other thing to note, is that once they're too old to race in juniors (once they're 18, they're no longer eligible), they don't often step up to other divisions. This could be related to budget, interest, or commitment.

There are a few ladies competing in the open-wheeler divisions like Sprint Cars and Compact Speedcars, and Speedway Karts (which are not really considered an entry-level division).

Now before anyone pipes up and says that Speedway in Australia isn't major, then why does it have several nationally-distributed publications dedicated to it, plus TV airtime, etc?

Love my speedway but again its on dirt or clay and the girls very rarely go into the main game of Sprintcars after racing in juniors.

The only main game type event for Speedway in Australia is World Series Sprintcars which again could not be considered a Major Championship in the theme of this thread.

But love the "Speedcars or Midgets" not compacts,they are the Grand Daddy of all the speedway classes.

[Umai Naa]

WSS is major for Speedway, and Speedway is relatively mainstream here in Australia, so I'd say it fits in with the theme of the thread. Not sure if Kelly Linnigan (sp?) ever competed in it.

Oh, and according to the Speedway Australia honour roll, a female won the Compact Speedcar Australian Title in the mid-'90s.

[wnut]

Little wonder the woman are under represented as champions when this is the type of rubbish they have to put up with.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006...er.motorracing

and then

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...west-bank.html


Don't know about major championship though! Haha!