No more LMP1 coupes (sort of)... (merged)

[ger80]

Same minimum weight for LMP1 and LMP2 would be good because this makes the gap between both classes more constant on different tracks.
Atm we have a huge gap on high speed tracks like Le Mans and a very small gap on low speed tracks like downtown racing in ALMS

[Purist]

And then the GT1s eat the LMP2s alive half the time, and no one will be interested in the class, Ger. Remember, the GT1s have 650-700hp, so even though they weight more, there have been isolated cases where they have had more top-end than LMP1s even (Road America 2002 comes to mind).

DJ, they're asking where a team like Pescarolo would go if the rules were written to make LMP2 explicitly for privateers and LMP1 specifically for manufacturers.

[sportscanyltics]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

erm pescarolo are already in LMP1 as are creation as well, dyson were in LMP1 last year but choose the wrong engine package and fell way short of the mark.

Which was exactly the point. LMP2 is exclusively for privateers, but LMP1 would be for manufacturers and privateers who choose to race in the upper class.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Purist

And then the GT1s eat the LMP2s alive half the time, and no one will be interested in the class, Ger. Remember, the GT1s have 650-700hp, so even though they weight more, there have been isolated cases where they have had more top-end than LMP1s even (Road America 2002 comes to mind).

DJ, they're asking where a team like Pescarolo would go if the rules were written to make LMP2 explicitly for privateers and LMP1 specifically for manufacturers.

kk, i think i just got the wrong end of the stick with that one before, do the GT1 cars really have that much power?, i thought they at most had 620/630bhp at the absolute maximum.

if the rules were explicitly written for LMP1 for big teams and LMP2 for the privateers then LMP1 would go under, we would only have audi and peugeot, porsche have said they refuse to go LMP1 until the ACO even out the restrictor rules on diesels to make them even with petrol cars.

but honda/acura are going LMP1 in the next few years, which leaves me wondering, will honda/acura run in LMP1 as a works team and sell the courage based ARX01a's as privateer cars next year or in 2009?

atm LMP2 is damn good, the cars are fantastic and they look awesome on track especially the lola B05/40's and with the radical SR9's and courage LC75 and of course, my favorite car for this year the zytek 07S in the mix its going to be a cracker.

LMP1 is in the best shape its been in for years although if the ACO evened things out between diesel and petrol, we could very likely have porsche in LMP1 and soon we will very likely have honda acura in LMP1 as well.

my motto, dont fix it if it aint broken, this is my favorite year of sportscars so far, my 2 favorite drivers (hayanri shimoda and tom chilton) are racing again which is great, not just that my favorite team arena are racing as well, AND, we have 2 zytek 07S and a heap of other great cars, personally im ecstatic about this year and i cant wait for LM!

[JAG]

P1 is a manufactuers class, in the ACO's eyes, only in as much as costs will not be controlled as restrictively as P2, hence why the ACO are unhappy with factory teams pushing up costs in P2.

Manufactuers can spend at will in P1, privateer's can step up and challenge if they have the will and budget.

P2 is supposed to be a cost controlled entry level for prototype racing.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by sportscanyltics

Penske are absolutely not privateers; they are the factory team for PMNA and cannot collect from the Privateer Points Fund.

Penske is not FUNNDED by Porsche, and Penske did purchase the two cars from Porsche. YES they recieve extensive engineering and technical support from Porsche and if that qualifes as a Factory team so be it.

The question then comes down to, What is a Factory team?? Support, funding, Techical and engineering or combination there of?

[dj choc ice]

all of what you stated make a works team AU, i would say penske are semi works with the amount of development they are getting on their cars, dyson would be a privateer team imo.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

all of what you stated make a works team AU, i would say penske are semi works with the amount of development they are getting on their cars, dyson would be a privateer team imo.

Looks like it may be time for the ACO to specificly define what a works / manufactures team is.

[Purist]

Dyson also gets technical support and some Porsche personnel.

DJ, a Corvette C5-R rolling off the assembly line (so before P&M got their hands on it) was giving 650hp, and that was in 2001. So yes, I'm pretty sure they're running 650-700hp in GT1s now, regardless of what they may quote. Bill Adams during the coverage for the Spring Road Atlanta race a few years back said the LMP1s/900s, by how they felt when behind the wheel, had to be making 700-750hp, even though the manufacturers were only quoting 580-650hp.

[SebringMG]

From an interview on Motors TV given by a Porsche manager type his words were that Penske do the development on new parts and the cars and that Porsche then sells those parts on to the other privateers. If that is not at least a description of a semi-works outfit i would be very surprised!!

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Looks like it may be time for the ACO to specificly define what a works / manufactures team is.

in that case, pescarolo, courage competition, creation autosportif and zytek motorsport are works teams, chamberlain, charouz, swiss spirit, racing for holland and rollcentre would be classed as privateers.

the ACO may have to define the difference between works and privateer teams, maybe for the privateer teams a special cup for them like the independants cup in the BTCC in 1998 and 1999 could be used as incentive for LMP2, and LMP1 customer teams.

this could be particularly useful in the ALMS LMP1 class, say the winner gets a big wad of money and a sponsorship deal as a result of winning, or a semi works programme in co-operation with audi or peugeot running a single semi works car?.

as for the GT1 power figures i would be amazed if they were making 700bhp, power i thought would at current be 580-620bhp, the large torque of the astons 6.0 V12 and the corvette 7.0 V8 and ford V8 as well would make a big difference.

as for a explicit LMP2 for privateer teams and LMP1 for works teams and big manufacturers, it may not be a good think, ostrecising privateers from LMP1 to LMP2 may not be a good incentive in bringing new blood into sports car racing.

afterall, one of the main attractions of sportscar racing has always been that the small constructor and little man i.e pescarolo, courage and creation autosportif, who can then compete against the big boys audi, peugeot and porsche and acura honda and put a boot up their arse!.

i.e, look at petit last year, if zytek didnt have that blowout which damaged the car i honestly believe they could have got the overall win, but thats open to discussion

[bil588]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

I find it ridiculous at this point that anybody should wait until the "diesel equivalency" is addressed by the ACO. Instead of being pleased that a P2 Porsche/Acura can even run with a P1 Audi, people complain about "reigning in" P2. Good grief.

The prototype race at Le Mans this year will be boring, no matter what happens with Peugeot. Sad, but true.

the P2 rules aren't made for the cars to take the overall win but penske is factory supported and porsche has lots and lots of resources and cash.

i'll quote you on the second part

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Penske is not FUNDED by Porsche, and Penske did purchase the two cars from Porsche. YES they recieve extensive engineering and technical support from Porsche and if that qualifes as a Factory team so be it.

The question then comes down to, What is a Factory team?? Support, funding, Techical and engineering or combination there of?

Dunno where the definitions might be found, but look at this:

http://www.imsaracing.net/2007/alms/ppf.pdf

Privateer Points Bonus Fund standings

BK, Fernandez, Highcroft, AGR, Dyson are all eligible; Penske is not.

[bernard b]

the P1/P2 equivalency appears good to me
the only problem comes with factory/factory supported teams that makes P2 not only for privateers
the only way to prevent that is to ban regular road cars builders to built P2 cars, because there is always a time when a team will be backed up by the factory
that means no Porsche, no Acura for example, but maybe official cars from Zytek, Pescarolo, Lola, Radical, Creation, Courage and others

[FLGTFAN]

I wish that people would not be so concerned with defining manufacturer participation into one class or another. If "factory" P2's are faster than P1 privateers, it's no different from "factory" GT's that are faster than P2 privateers. Multiclass racing has always been imperfect in that respect.

Regarding coupes, if the rules are changed to encourage more of them, I hope the ACO will find ways to improve the look of them. The Pug looks a bit like an ugly duckling, IMO.

[JAG]

Missed the news myself, but apparently the Lola coupe will be ready for 2008.

http://www.endurance-info.com/articl...d=3450&thold=0

[dj choc ice]

thats a piece of good news , the more coupes the merrier and i think the B06/10 looked nicer than the current B07/10, that new nose doesnt make the car look as nice as the B05/40 and B06/10 shapes.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

Missed the news myself, but apparently the Lola coupe will be ready for 2008.

http://www.endurance-info.com/articl...d=3450&thold=0

You will find this @ DSC archived news/ LeMans/ 28 Feb.
Lola Coupe' Sooner than you'd think
And
Hindy's MWMS http://www.0157.org/ archive/ series 2 /episode 9
ALMS Preview Special


L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

i
as for the GT1 power figures i would be amazed if they were making 700bhp, power i thought would at current be 580-620bhp, the large torque of the astons 6.0 V12 and the corvette 7.0 V8 and ford V8 as well would make a big difference.

All the GT1 cars run restrictors in the intakes. These small air restrictors keep the HP down. Without the air restrictors would be a differnt story. Might be as fast as the P1 cars on the long straights.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Without the air restrictors would be a differnt story. Might be as fast as the P1 cars on the long straights.

So? LMP1 also runs with restrictors to keep the power down. An unrestricted Judd GV5 for instance produces 800+ bhp, while AER claims 1000 bhp for its P32 T V8

[bil588]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Why would the AIM deal give them money for a coupe?!!

L.P.

they've got another sponsor...

Aviaxess and Creation are joining forces for this years Le-Mans weekend, you and your friends can beat the traffic queues and get a helicopter transfer from Paris to Le-Mans in about an hour.

http://www.creationsport.co.uk/

[Hammerdown]

The car looks great in that colour (on the press release linked above)

[Purist]

There's a great story from Andy Wallace about running a prototype in '99 or so and going down the the first portion of the Mulsanne, a Viper whipped past him. He outbreaked the Viper, and passed it into the chicane. The Viper repassed him on the straight again, and this continued till Wallace got around to the more technical sections.

[gwyllion]

ACO still plans to make LMP1 coupe exclusive from 2010 on. They also want the prototype to resemble road cars more, especially at the front of the car.

The minimum weight for LMP2 will be increased to 775 kg in 2008.

The cost of GT2 cars should also be reduced. These would mean less electronics.

Shell is looking to bio-fuel and bio-diesel. And ACO is studying energy recuperation in particular with the rear wheels and the rear brakes.

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59755

[Mirage M6]

From EI:

"Then, precisely, let us speak about P1 since it is the category which has to more evolve/move in the years to come. President Plassart and Daniel Poissenot were rather clear: payment LM P1 must make it possible the cars to resemble a little more the civil cars of the committed manufacturers. That relates to mainly obviously the front face which will have to thus be less open than they are it today and to move away from the single-seat look adopted at the present time. They will be inevitably closed and equipped with a cockpit larger than that possible today in LM P1 or P2. Their side and back protections will be still reinforced. Daniel Poissenot hastened however to add that one must avoid to the maximum going towards cars resembling those of Large-Am: Ouf! As an example of the future LM P1, an illustration based on a Corvette C6.R was presented. One can thus see that the GTP will be in a certain manner of return".


Full info:

http://www.endurance-info.com/articl...&mode=&order=0