Shu is a great driver but.......

[J.McClane]

What gets on my nipples is when Shu fans say he is the best cos he has broken all those records.
I would just like to point out thar F1 cars are much easier to drive now then when Senna & Prost held those records.
The cars are also much more reliable and are finishing twice as many races per season so it's quite obvious that records would be broken.
Like i said Shu is a great driver but he does not even come close to the greatness of Senna, Prost and many of the other driver of that era.

[Sato san]

I hate to say it , but yes SCHUMI is a great driver. BUT , i think his achievements will always be tainted by some of the bad sportsmanlike actions he has done on the track. There are plenty of times that he does stuff to other drivers on the track which is unacceptable. Thats why im so pleased that there our drivers like Montoya , and maybe drivers like Sato , and Raikkonen who are going to give him some of his own medicine ( without the cheating bits ) in the future.

[Glen]

J.McClane

Personally I think you're typing out of your arse! So what if the cars are easier to drive - one man's dominance over the rest of the field has never been as profound. I honestly don't think Senna ever achieved such a differential over his competitors.

And in any case the cars are actually alot harder to drive on grooved tyres than with slicks - just ask Niki Lauda.

[ljakse]

I don't like this thread.

[Nicholas]

TGF is good but I'd like to make the point that if the rules in the 80s were the same as they were now Prost would have had six world championships.

[Mania]

Give me a break. Senna was Senna, allright. He was'nt God's gift to earth. No one is. Schumacher is the best at this point of time. Who's to say Senna wouldnt have gotten his butt kicked had he lived? You cant call such situations. Senna was good - Schumacher is good. Quit with the comparisons, they are never going to be fair and they dont accomplish a thing.

[Alan Jones]

Originally posted by Mania
Give me a break. Senna was Senna, allright. He was'nt God's gift to earth. No one is. Schumacher is the best at this point of time. Who's to say Senna wouldnt have gotten his butt kicked had he lived? You cant call such situations. Senna was good - Schumacher is good. Quit with the comparisons, they are never going to be fair and they dont accomplish a thing.

You are right on the money mania, comparisons are really quite inane when you think about it. Unless you are speaking from experience, ( ie having driven in both championships compared, and also both of the respective drivers cars) the whole thing is hearsay

[Lee Janotta]

I have to agree in part... Senna, Berndt Rosemeyer, Tazio Nuvolari, Fangio, and Prost all belonged to different eras than Schumacher. Rosemeyer and Nuvolari had to live with huge horsepower and expremely primitive handling. Daring and balance were the most important assets a driver could have. Fangio won his 5 championships with 4 different teams, in an era of 4-wheel drift, zero downforce, and great risks. Prost and Senna drove thousand horspower rockets with huge downforce and no driver aids, and had to share the resources of their teams with equally demanding teammates (Arnoux, Lauda, Mansell, and each other!), and were both mechanically outclassed sometimes during peaks of their careers.

Schumacher is a very good driver, no doubt, in an era where choosing a perfect line and being fluid all around the track are the most important things. He has driven with many driver aids, though, and has most always been the undisputed #1 driver at both Benneton and Ferarri. And he's always had a strong car, his teammates, except in '94, have never finished outside 6th in points. And now, he's got a team with unlimited resources, an _extremely_ well sorted and fast car, and not much serious competition. Moreso, he's got Max Mosely and Bernie Eccelstone behind him; Senna _never_ had that.

[Gt_R]

If that gets on your nipples, then bite it off.

Quote JC:"What gets on my nipples is when Shu fans say he is the best cos he has broken all those records."

He is the best not just because he broke all those records. It is his abilities and talent and passion that defines him from the other drivers. This is something not just blabbered by Schumacher fans, but even by many other professionals directly involved with the sports.

And perhaps if you read around, there are also many non-Schumacher fans who agreed that Schumacher is the best driver...

Ever? That i do not know and i won't make such comparisons...because as Mania and AJ had said "Quit with the comparisons, they are never going to be fair and they dont accomplish a thing.". Even comparing drivers from the same era can be quite a task. Thus, all we can conclude is that Michael is an excellent driver, clearly the benchmark out of the current bunch, and that he JOINS Senna, Prost, Fangio as one of the greatest.... But nobody can say that he, or any other drivers, is for definite certain the BEST EVER.

Cars are no doubt different to how they were in the past...But if you would think that if all the cars are easier to drive, that would make competition between drivers much stronger and the need for perfection even higher...and thus make you appreciate the achievements that Michael had.

Such comparisons were done many times a season, and usually they get nowhere. And very often, very ridiculous excuses to put down Michael would also pop up along the way...

Just why do we need a BEST EVER when we can have a "table of honour" for ALL the greatest drivers that came, that left?

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Sato san
I hate to say it , but yes SCHUMI is a great driver. BUT , i think his achievements will always be tainted by some of the bad sportsmanlike actions he has done on the track. There are plenty of times that he does stuff to other drivers on the track which is unacceptable. Thats why im so pleased that there our drivers like Montoya , and maybe drivers like Sato , and Raikkonen who are going to give him some of his own medicine ( without the cheating bits ) in the future.

I have to say I fully agree. Yes, Schumi is the best of the current crop, I don't think anybody can deny that. He capable of taking an average car and make it look like a winning car(96,97,98). But some of his past actions on the track, to me, are simply unforgivable, and I refuse to support someone of his character, who thinks that winning is the only that matters, but how you acieved that victory is not important.

[EERO]

Glen, may I remind you of the policy to attack the Post and not the poster. And Mr McClane, welcome to the forum. As a rule we frown upon such salty comments as they quickly escalate into flame wars. If you wish to insult "That German Fellow", I'm sure his past activities on the track will provide plenty of ammunition.

I will be the first to admit that I am not a Schumacher fan, but I do feel that since his first GP in Belgium in 1991, he has been one of the most exciting and dynamic drivers I have ever seen. He is clearly the class of the field now and any Team Principle would be thriled to have him on their team. But I think Gt-R's Table of Honour is a fine suggestion and TGF clearly has a place upon it.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by ljakse
I don't like this thread.

Neither do I.

[Alan Jones]

Originally posted by EERO

I will be the first to admit that I am not a Schumacher fan, but I do feel that since his first GP in Belgium in 1991, he has been one of the most exciting and dynamic drivers I have ever seen. He is clearly the class of the field now and any Team Principle would be thriled to have him on their team. But I think Gt-R's Table of Honour is a fine suggestion and TGF clearly has a place upon it.

Well said EERO, your wisdom and enlightenment never cease to amaze me

While his tactics and so called sportsmanship are indeed a trait i also abhore, his talent as a driver and his ability to be on the attack, 100% of the time one can only admire.
To consistently find those extra tenths, lap after lap, is a very rare skill and his record speaks for itself, even if you disqualified him from the championship for the times when he has , IMO, totally gone against the essence of F1, and tried to take out his opposition instead of beat them to the line or bow out gracefully. To say he wouldn't be so successful if not for the team also IMO is only partially correct. All of these things are important ingredients to win but no matter how competitve the team is, or the budget is, or how far ahead of everyone else his teams cars is ( hopefully not) ,without a good wheel man, you're history..

[Coach44]

The only way you could compare drivers is to put them all in the same cars and let them go at it. That will never happened!! Comparing drivers that are not on the same team is quite entertaining but also very useless. You can only "really" compare MS with his previous partners which I am sad to say is an easy comparison to make.

BTW I am far from being a MS fan BUT he is amazing (or "annoying" depending of perspective) to watch.

[Bononi]

Yeah, yeah...

Are you ready to see this the entire year ????

5th WDC for TGF, is this the last record to break ?

Now JPM you better start winning races or you never gonna break TGF' records.... RUN !!!!!!!!!

[Glen]

I can't see any problem with making comparissons - the best way to judge a driver is by his dominance or otherwise over the rest of the field. Since all drivers from all eras faced a grid of twenty-odd other top class pilots their worth can simply be judged in terms of their performance over those others.

So what if the technique is different to drive a 21st Century car? It's stil racing F1 cars. The comparisson way back to Fangio is somewhat harder, but mainly because the sport hadn't really developed into its modern form.

Comparisson to Senna and Prost is totally valid if you ask me. Only Senna is in the same league for "miracle" laps (probably better than MS, IMO), and only Prost in the same class for relentless winning and cool-headed racing. As far as the most awesome blend of those qualities goes, Schumacher is without equal. All you Senna die-hards better get used to it - Schumi's record will eventually eclipse all, and we'll be having these arguments for years to come!

If I caused any offence to J.McClane I apologise. "Typing out of your arse" is a funny remark EERO - Please make an effort to tell the difference between gentle leg-pulling and an "attack". Perhaps I should have used some of those dreadfully funny smilies - goodness, they are clever.

[J.McClane]

I take no offence

[J.McClane]

but here is another question. If Shu is so great, then why are his teammates never allowed to race against him?

[Red]

Originally posted by J.McClane
but here is another question. If Shu is so great, then why are his teammates never allowed to race against him?

Actually that doesn't happen that often. If you were talking about Austria 2001, the correct answer is what you just said: he is so great. His teammates may occasionaly (and I mean once or twice per season) snatch a couple of points from Schumacher, and from the team's point of view that is a loss, since if a Ferrari will win the championship that is Schumacher's car.

[drexel]

You mean about once a year when one of his teammates finds himslf in front of Schumi through a stroke of fate that has nothing to do with outracing him?

[J.McClane]

so if anyone does overtake Shu that is a stroke of fate?
why are Shu fans so blind to everyone else on the track except Shu?

[Red]

Originally posted by J.McClane
so if anyone does overtake Shu that is a stroke of fate?
why are Shu fans so blind to everyone else on the track except Shu?

Ahh-HA! You cleverly noticed that neither his opponents are allowed to race him

[calais]

i was surfing this site and just thought i should put my 2 cents worth on this subject. whilst not doubting that schui is one of the greatest drivers in F1 history, his disciples need to face reality and realise that his actions both past and present do nothing to enhance his reputation in a lot of peoples minds. i will not go into all the details, everyone knows what they are.i will just say that in the history books he will not be seen in the same light or command the same respect as some similar talented but less character flawed drivers

[drexel]

so if anyone does overtake Shu that is a stroke of fate?

You tell me since i never said that...

why are Shu fans so blind to everyone else on the track except Shu?

I guess it's easier for you to believe we have some kind of vision impairment rather than accepting that many people just see a damn good driver.

[Glen]

Most people wouldn't claim he is without fault - its more that over the course of an entire season he is out-raced less often than other drivers.

As for the character doubts (as witnessed by his atrocious moves on Jaques and Damon (although some doubt still lingers in mind over the deliberateness of the Damon encounter - Damon shoud have displayed more caution instead of being so overjoyed at a mistake and steaming-in)) - those faults can just as easily be seen in both Senna and Prost.