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Old 10 Aug 2005, 11:51 (Ref:1378891)   #1
Go_For_Pole
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Go_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGo_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Some people will never understand...

Take a look at the following link (in Italian, apologies for that) and marvel the great stupidity of people that cannot understand the difference between a touring car series and a single seat junior category...

http://www.italiaracing.net/news.asp?id=2162&cat=FORMULA_3_EURO_SERIES&nome=F.3|EURO|SERIES&cart=news_formula|3|euro|series

A brief summary for those that can't understand Italian: the latestb bright idea of the organisers of the F3 Euroseries championship to sharpen the competition is to add sucess ballast to the cars... Supposely that is rumour at the momment but still...
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Old 10 Aug 2005, 19:34 (Ref:1379286)   #2
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littleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridlittleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
This is not such a stupid idea.The Mercedes powered cars, on a typical circuit like Zandvoort, have at least a 1 second per lap performance advantage. The Opel powered teams have given up all hope of competing for race victories this season and now race purely against each other. If something isn't done to equalise performance then next year's F3 Euroseries will have no more than 8 to 10 cars entered.Hamilton,Di Grassi,Di Resta etc are good drivers, but make no mistake, the Mercedes engine is making them look alot better than they really are. No way are they a second a lap faster than Rossiter,Perera,Duval,Van Der Garde etc in equal equipment.
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Old 10 Aug 2005, 20:12 (Ref:1379314)   #3
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Go_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGo_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Hold on a minute, of course nobody in their mind doesn't agree that Mercedes have created a monster of a series by:
a) developing an engine that has nothing to do with the other F3 engines
b) helping ASM develop a car that looks like a dallara but has little to do with the actual dallara as used by the other teams

I can hear you shouting "that has always been F3, a free formula that development is allowed". True, but Mercedes went waaaay too far (in expenses) to dominate the category. Why? I really don't have a clue*. Now they are trying to "save" the series from the problem they have created by introducing weight penalties...

Oh and one last thing to fans of the British series that are ready to suggest that they always expected this, that BF3 is the best blah blah blah. Don't dilute yourselves, once a Mercedes engines finds its way on the BF3 grid things will never be the same for BF3.

* In theory each series has a marketing value to manufacturers and based on this racing budgets are allocated. A balance in competiviness is achieved because this value is the same for all and thus the budgets are roughly the same. If for any reason a manufacturer allocates double the budget for a series, chances are that they will walk it and leave the rest with the choice of spending the same or going away.
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Old 10 Aug 2005, 20:13 (Ref:1379315)   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleman
This is not such a stupid idea.The Mercedes powered cars, on a typical circuit like Zandvoort, have at least a 1 second per lap performance advantage. The Opel powered teams have given up all hope of competing for race victories this season and now race purely against each other. If something isn't done to equalise performance then next year's F3 Euroseries will have no more than 8 to 10 cars entered.Hamilton,Di Grassi,Di Resta etc are good drivers, but make no mistake, the Mercedes engine is making them look alot better than they really are. No way are they a second a lap faster than Rossiter,Perera,Duval,Van Der Garde etc in equal equipment.
too true.

i hate the idea of equaling things up in motorsport. but when drivers of the quality of rossiter, duval etc have to watch drivers such as adrian sutil blast off into the distance it doesnt taste right. fair enough if its f1, or the irl or something but in something like f3, drivers need results to impress people. sure there will be top teams and bottom teams in any series but top teams in lower catagories are usually top because the drivers they have. hamilton is grand as gravy and would be doing well wherever but i look at sutil and there is talent but not enough talent for him to be beating the drivers he does week in and week out.

like i said, its all well and good having a performance advantage in f1 but where young drivers careers are on the line it should be the driver that is the biggest factor in success or failure, not the car they drive. for 2 years now, asm have been just too good. how can sutil and salignon come second in the marlboro masters without having the best car on the grid?

f3 is the so called proving ground. but you cant prove a thing the way it is at the moment.
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Old 10 Aug 2005, 21:19 (Ref:1379405)   #5
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Alfonso de Orleans should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Maybe they should do like in Spanish F3. Everyone has Dallara. Although you could have others, but none were bought. Everyone has the Toyota F3 engine and everyone is on Dunlops. So in the end, it really is up to the driver. Even a season costs half as much as BF3 with the best teams. Most drivers can put in close to 10,000 km during the whole season for that cost. Tell me that's not a good price to km ratio? Oh, and if you won the championship, you get a days test in the Toyota F1.
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Old 10 Aug 2005, 21:41 (Ref:1379430)   #6
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jondownunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjondownunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The day they put success ballast in Euro F3 is the day I stop watching or caring about the series. I agree it's not a good situation for anyone outside ASM/Mercedes, but as long as the regs have been followed then this kind of domination has to be accepted occasionally in an open formula. By all means look at ways of making F3 more competitive, but with so many cynics already sceptical about the "sport" element of motorsport, let's hope they don't resort to this ethos pervading our culture: that everyone has the right to succeed.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 10:10 (Ref:1379685)   #7
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Karmalogic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What a load of tosh, sorry not you Alfonso, ASM jesus its not a totally different car i am sorry but they have a strong group of COMPETENT peolple who have been working together for a while the team is well gelled and is controlled by someone who knows technically and managerially how to lead a professional motorsport team. I hate the fact that they are running away with the championship for two years now but if other team owners would realise how incompetent technically alot of the engineers around are they would stop blowing off loadsa crap about monster engines ASM building a whole car all their wind tunnel work. IF thats the case (bar being thrown out last race) they do look to be more on top of the GP2 car than anyone else!!

And dont blame Mercedes there is only so much you can do with these engines if NBE SPIESS cant compete they should look at there own problems not complaining about someone else doing a better job!!!

Thank you and Good night!!
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 11:44 (Ref:1379759)   #8
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bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
and the mercedes advantage isn't a second a lap. it's 6 tenths at the most on the longer tracks. it was 4 tenths at the norisring. sometimes like at the ring it just coincides with when *certain* opel teams can't find their arses with both hands.

agreed about asm doing their job and no-one else doing it as well. they seem to be using the modern methods a heck of a lot better than anyone else.

back to the original... whotsit, ballast is a bad thing. and so are one make formulas. it's far better to have a series where advantages can be gained through good engineering rather than cheating.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 12:04 (Ref:1379776)   #9
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Totally agree with you Bella and Karmalogic

Alfonso, Spanish F3 is a great stepping stone to Euro F3 but I dont think it would be right to change the Euro to the same rules.

Our philosophy with motorsport is that you cant beat a works team with the same equipment you should try something different. Maybe the other teams should stop being so scared and take a risk with different manufacturers.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 12:06 (Ref:1379779)   #10
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strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!
Apart from anything else, unless the FIA agree to change their rules across the board, it could no longer be called Formula 3, because it would no longer comply. Even now the Euroseries varies in a couple of small areas from the FIA regulations.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 14:02 (Ref:1379888)   #11
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strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!strider has a real shot at the championship!
Incidentally, that original link didn't work properly for me, but this one does. Sadly, my Italian is somewhere between rubbish and non-existent, but you can still get the idea of what they are saying. Don't think they like the idea much either!
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 14:42 (Ref:1379920)   #12
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bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
i have two words for that article - doom mongering and speculation

even if the champion's pretty much decided this year, there's a fairly interesting battle emerging between the "second" mercedes team and the top 2 opel teams in the championship. although i think i know how that's gonna end

if mercedes didn't have an official team in the euroseries, surely that wouldn't be too much of a hassle? it might not be such a shiny championship because you'd have to say that would mean that asm would leave. two less cars, and you're down to less than 20 cars... even if you do get crowds of 20,000ish watching the races (there was more people actually watching qualifying on friday at nurburgring than there are on raceday at f3/gt for example), you can't really say it's a championship with so few cars.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 15:32 (Ref:1379959)   #13
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littleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridlittleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Last F3 Euroseries round at the Nurburgring: Qualifying 1: Best Merc 1.22.463 Best Opel 1.23.387 Qualifying 2: Best Merc 1.23.009 Best Opel 1.23.949.That look's like the best part of a second per lap to me! Don't know where you get 6 tenths from.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 15:50 (Ref:1379969)   #14
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Because not all of that gap came from the engine - some of it is ASM's own engineering superiority
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 17:45 (Ref:1380025)   #15
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exactly.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 17:52 (Ref:1380032)   #16
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
F3 is a development formula - simple
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 18:54 (Ref:1380074)   #17
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littleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridlittleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Excuse me, but both pole positions at the Nurburgring were taken by Manor Motorsport cars and I don't think they use ASM's own engineering superiority.
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 19:07 (Ref:1380085)   #18
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Wasn't Nurburgring qualifying weather affected?
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 19:09 (Ref:1380086)   #19
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Whatever the reason that they were ahead it is a good thing that they could be. Everyone operated to the same rules on the day and the people who were best at it came out on top. Sounds like a competition to me!
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 19:52 (Ref:1380124)   #20
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littleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridlittleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Neither qualifying session was weather affected.I spent the test days,qualifying and the races glued to the pit lane monitors and I can assure you the Merc drivers had a second in their pocket everytime they ventured onto the circuit. For the record, I am all in favour of F3 remaining a 'pure and open formula' but the future of the Euroseries is uncertain because no driver is going to spend £400k next season unless he has a Merc engine - and there are precious few to go round!
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Old 11 Aug 2005, 21:43 (Ref:1380223)   #21
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manor were one of the only teams to test at the ring though weren't they?
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Old 12 Aug 2005, 00:35 (Ref:1380318)   #22
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In reference to the original post, who ever believes anything written by the Italian press?
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Old 13 Aug 2005, 14:34 (Ref:1381347)   #23
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Go_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGo_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Depends Chucky, you don't but I do. Especially a signed article by a site that is well connected to Italian teams.

However, even if you don't believe the source it is difficult not to see that Euroseries is going to wrong direction. Like littleman said no driver would spend so much money without a Merc engine. I would go a bit further and add that no serious team would bother to enter without a Merc and of course no junior academy (Briatore's aka RDD or Toyota) will place one of their finest in the category again. Add those facts together and it doesn't look rosy, does it? But then again I am probably prone to doom mongering and speculation as bella thinks.

But hey Mackmot suggested somebody should try something different to battle Mercedes, well Mr Mackie could you please elaborate a bit on that because I don't see much of a choice. Chassiswise you can have a Lola or SLC (best of luck then...) and enginewise you can have a Spiess (no longer an Opel this, so no money for development), a Toyota (like Kolles-Midland, not recommended) or a Mugen (seeing that British teams previously powered by Mugen go elsewhere for their Euro supply doesn't inspire confidence though, does it?).

Of course you could believe Mercedes claim that there won't be any factory supported teams next year. Which will leave the Euroseries exactly where Merc wanted in the first place, effectively a single engine formula. Problems solved? Emmm, no becuse still you would need a good team then to beat the heavily modified ASM cars. And I insist Mr Karmalogic on heavily modified (to the effect of certain dallara parts not being compatible to ASM cars) relying on a source that I consider reliable.

So as a team you could a Manor and start developing your cars as well (a bit of expensive hobby) or hope and pray for sucess ballast to let you have some hope in winning. Or not bother at all as this sucess ballast idea will probably not sit well with young drivers looking for a way to F1. For high quality teams used to winning like Prema, Rosberg and Signature the choice is obvious (more doom mongering and speculation).

Still one question remains though, why Mercedes did all this effort for a simple F3 championship? Are they after doing a collection of championship they destroyed (original versions of DTM and FIA GT are part of the collection already)?
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 11:21 (Ref:1382586)   #24
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Mathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMathias should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If F3 is part of the Road To F1™, then surely it's not a problem if one chassis/engine/whatever has a performance advantage over another? Despite the impression they sometimes give, the people in motorsport who make the real decisions about driver ability are a little more sophisticated that those motorsport fans who only see the winner of a race, and not drivers' individual performances, which may be why Loic Duval and James Rossiter are getting more attention that Adrian Sutil and Lucas di Grassi. And why every conversation about how good Lewis Hamilton is appears to include the phrase "yes, but he is driving a Mercedes-powered ASM".
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 11:41 (Ref:1382612)   #25
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thats the problem though mathias, you can't judge how good someone is because of the asm factor. it's the same in any case, but while people go around preaching that someone is the best thing since sliced bread, it *does* have to be taken with a pinch of salt. the team/engine combination is worth a second at least over the nearest non merc non asm team. so you have to ask if he'd be as good if say, he was in loic duval's car.

poor example there mathias, lucas and loic tend to get the same level of attention cause they've got the same backers
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