Toyota/Rebellion Racing - Le Mans/ILMC/LMS - 2011 (merged)

[JAG]

I want fair competition, not artifical racing, the Pescarolo is practically historic yet still manages to be a pace setter.

Rebellion have gained reliabiity, but their pace hasn't impressed like Highcroft at Sebring, what would Highcroft/HPD be capable if they had a three car operation like Audi and Peugeot.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by The Badger

When will the change be implemented , before this years 24 hours I hope .

That is certainly what's implied in the press release. ASAP!

[isynge]

Originally Posted by JAG

I want fair competition, not artifical racing, the Pescarolo is practically historic yet still manages to be a pace setter.

Rebellion have gained reliabiity, but their pace hasn't impressed like Highcroft at Sebring, what would Highcroft/HPD be capable if they had a three car operation like Audi and Peugeot.

I've been interested by some of the commentary viz grandfathered cars. Are we sure that there's something genuinely out of whack here? Looking at Pescarolo they won at Paul Ricard largely due to staying out of the trouble that hit ASM and Rebellion, then at Spa they didn't really star in practice, and in the first stint, when they were running in reasonable proximity to the Rebellion they certainly weren't faster (if anything a bit the reverse) - their results are, I would argue, stemming from running a very slick and professional outfit rather than the oomph provided by the grandfathered Judd.

Fully buy into some of the comments that hold that we still don't know what a serious factory effort with a petrol motor could do - and the hint given by Sebring is that it might be close with current regs, but given the deck we're dealing with something to make the likes of Toyota feel they're not going to be humiliated in the first instance and chucking them the bone of a couple of seconds a lap wouldn't, in my mind, hurt at all.

[Félix]

The engine rules put different restrictors on different engines so they all produce pretty much the same power and can get to roughly the same top speed right? Let's achieve that with the rules adjustment. Diesels overtaking petrol P1s on straights with more speed differential than PP1 vs P2 is plain wrong. Factory diesels carrying more downforce with the same top speed and killing the PP1s in the curves is more acceptable.

Anyway, no one else stands a chance because no one else is showing up at Le Mans with 3 cars full of ultra-pro drivers or with 30,000 km of testing behind them. Worst comes to worst, the grid will not be made up of the 6 factory cars in the first 6 places, the factory cars will not be running alone during the first stint of the race and maybe even a PP1 running a perfect race will finish ahead of a DP1 that loses 3 to 5 laps during the race.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by isynge

I've been interested by some of the commentary viz grandfathered cars. Are we sure that there's something genuinely out of whack here? Looking at Pescarolo they won at Paul Ricard largely due to staying out of the trouble that hit ASM and Rebellion, then at Spa they didn't really star in practice, and in the first stint, when they were running in reasonable proximity to the Rebellion they certainly weren't faster (if anything a bit the reverse) - their results are, I would argue, stemming from running a very slick and professional outfit rather than the oomph provided by the grandfathered Judd.

Fully buy into some of the comments that hold that we still don't know what a serious factory effort with a petrol motor could do - and the hint given by Sebring is that it might be close with current regs, but given the deck we're dealing with something to make the likes of Toyota feel they're not going to be humiliated in the first instance and chucking them the bone of a couple of seconds a lap wouldn't, in my mind, hurt at all.

I agree Pescarolo are making the best of their euipment, but if I was Rebellion or Highcroft I'd expect my 2011 cars to be notably faster than the grandfathered Pescarolo and 908. Just as R8's dropped off the ultimate pace in 2005, when new reg cars came on the scene, so should all current grandfathered cars, including ex-works cars.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by JAG

I agree Pescarolo are making the best of their euipment, but if I was Rebellion or Highcroft I'd expect my 2011 cars to be notably faster than the grandfathered Pescarolo and 908. Just as R8's dropped off the ultimate pace in 2005, when new reg cars came on the scene, so should all current grandfathered cars, including ex-works cars.

2005 is a great example here - the grandfathered cars did fall off the pace, but well run ones did rise to the top, and some of the hybridised rew regs cars didn't excel. So back then you had wins for the R8 and the Zytek (grandfathered - certainly in the first case - not so sure about a 675 car) and at the same time the Courage hybrid (among many others) didn't live up to expectations - was this a shortcoming of the rules or just the way things work in competition?

What we don't have in 2011 is a suitable variance of packages, or amount of track time (e.g. the Pescarolo and Oak cars haven't really run against each other to any meaningful extent) to ascertain whether the regs are about right, in that the grandfathered Pescarolo is just off the single lap pace, but well run can squeeze out a result (like the Oreca R8 could in 2005) or if there is an unfair advantage to sticking to an old rules package.

So far it looks like the Rebellion and the Oak Pescarolo are faster, by a nose, than the grandfathered Pescarolo, what we probably could really do with is another old school car to set the context a bit more effectively - but when has a call for more cars not been justified?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

That is certainly what's implied in the press release. ASAP!

I take that to mean what exactly ? I know what ASAP means , but I have a rather large doubt in my mind that it will happen ASAP . ASAP after June I reckon .

I hope it happens before the big one , but with respect to ACO , they make their own rules , and suit themselves .

If it happens , the big one could be a right belter .

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I take that to mean what exactly ? I know what ASAP means , but I have a rather large doubt in my mind that it will happen ASAP . ASAP after June I reckon .

I hope it happens before the big one , but with respect to ACO , they make their own rules , and suit themselves .

"These adjustments will be introduced as soon as possible in view of the 2011 Le Mans 24 Hours."

Seems pretty clear to me mate, any adjustments will come into force pre Le Mans. Question is, what are the financial implications for the teams. It was suggested the HPD break cost Level 5 tens of thousands to impliment (or did I misunderstand something there).

Anyway, we're way off topic on this thread.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

"These adjustments will be introduced as soon as possible in view of the 2011 Le Mans 24 Hours."

Seems pretty clear to me mate, any adjustments will come into force pre Le Mans. Question is, what are the financial implications for the teams. It was suggested the HPD break cost Level 5 tens of thousands to impliment (or did I misunderstand something there).

Anyway, we're way off topic on this thread.

Restrictor diameter changes are cheap, cost of material (aluminum) and machine time.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Restrictor diameter changes are cheap, cost of material (aluminum) and machine time.

Thanks for clarifying Mike

So, any restrictor break would be something of a mixed blessing financially, and potentially a problem to impliment this close to Le Mans? I assume Toyota would fund any Rebellion developments.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

"These adjustments will be introduced as soon as possible in view of the 2011 Le Mans 24 Hours."

Seems pretty clear to me mate

Yep , It sounds like a step in the correcdirection , and at the correct time too . Good .

Thank you .

[Félix]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Restrictor diameter changes are cheap, cost of material (aluminum) and machine time.

Engine remap???

[GT6]

It certainly needs some thing done to make the car competative, it sounded brilliant at spa but did not seem to be able to keep a good pace and the lack of power really proved that they need some sort of change if they are to get anywhere near the top cars

[RJC_pt]

Originally Posted by JAG

I want fair competition, not artifical racing, the Pescarolo is practically historic yet still manages to be a pace setter.

Rebellion have gained reliabiity, but their pace hasn't impressed like Highcroft at Sebring, what would Highcroft/HPD be capable if they had a three car operation like Audi and Peugeot.

By that route so is the Oreca... and the lola as deep routes to...
Maybe toyota's engine isn't as good as HPD's one...

[AGD]

Originally Posted by RJC_pt

Maybe toyota's engine isn't as good as HPD's one...

Probably not. The HPD engine was developed as part of a factory endurance program for a few years. Of course, I'm sure Toyota has a lot of tricks up their sleeves from Super GT. I don't know if it means anything, but the Honda engine was considered to be a notch or two better than the Toyota engine when they were both in the IRL in 2005. I believe both engines are loosely related to the IRL designs.

[TF110]

Don't think there's much wrong with the engine, but rather the factors holding it back. These engines are capable of 800hp easy, that's from the Nissan camp in SuperGT. A bigger restrictor might help the power department, but lets not forget this is still in a lola chassis while the HPD is their own. That can still be worth time at the track, even if not much. The Rebellion team did have the fastest non diesel lap time at Spa might I add.

[helgi]

"These adjustments will be introduced as soon as possible in view of the 2011 Le Mans 24 Hours."

As Roman Wittemeier from Motorsport-Total said, aren't they too hurry? It looks like they've typed that letter and only waited for Spa finish to push a "send" button. I don't think they had already checked all that half distance lap times before sending the letter.

[Pandamasque]

I don't think they needed to analyse any data from the race just to repost a quote from regulations with some further explanations. The press release is nothing more than a reminder about their original intentions, nothing concrete on exactly what is needed to be done and how.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Restrictor diameter changes are cheap, cost of material (aluminum) and machine time.

Would ask you directly in a message, but guessing others wonder too. Is that all that a restrictor change entails, just milling a new part? Does anything like the intake behind the restrictor, or ECU wise have to change to make use of this increased airflow?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Would ask you directly in a message, but guessing others wonder too. Is that all that a restrictor change entails, just milling a new part? Does anything like the intake behind the restrictor, or ECU wise have to change to make use of this increased airflow?

That's a question for knighty, not sure how much work has to be done to the map if say you're changing the amount of airflow by 5-10%. Knighty?

[BRG]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

That's a question for knighty, not sure how much work has to be done to the map if say you're changing the amount of airflow by 5-10%. Knighty?

Zytek said when going from p2 to p1 that they did a lot of work including changing the compresion ratio.
And Judd had problems with the 5.5l engine on the smaller restictor so pescarolo got dispensation to run the 5l engine.

[knighty]

BRG has pretty much nailed it, the engine would need a complete re-map and compression ratio reduction if your doing things properly.....whereby they will be running a VERY high compression ratio and be running on the edge of detonation, possibly, but not always with block mounted knock sensors....... if I remember correctly, a larger restrictor will obviously equate to more air in the cylinder, therefore require a very slight reduction in compression ratio, which is milling material off the pistons, or you can also alter the dynamic compression ratio by simply re-timing the camshaft opening and closing events, if you dont do either you run a very serious resk of detonating an engine if your not running knock sensors, whereby localised hot spots on the piston will locally pre-ignite the air/fuel mixture before the spark plug does and thats what wrecks an engine and blows holes in pistons.......its pretty much the same scenario for either a turbo or normally aspirated gasoline or diesel engine........ level 5 recently said the recent restrictor saga cost them $50K, of which I bet most of that went to engine mods and mapping time at HPD.......I'm pleased the ACO are aboul to align everyone, after spa it was embarrasing for the LMP1 gasoline runners, they should be allowed to compete, no matter how old the car/engine.

[broadrun96]

I knew someone on here would be able to get out some information. Thought there had to be some fairly in depth work, although how many teams wouldn't gladly jump in to get the work done to increase the engine's capability? Something that HPD or Toyota can manage with a week's work or more in depth than that?

[BRG]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I knew someone on here would be able to get out some information. Thought there had to be some fairly in depth work, although how many teams wouldn't gladly jump in to get the work done to increase the engine's capability? Something that HPD or Toyota can manage with a week's work or more in depth than that?

I think the ACO will slow the diesels with a 2% or so smaller restrictor and 20kg wieght penelty and the petrol cars may get a 2% bigger restrictor but no weight change

[CTD]

Originally Posted by BRG

I think the ACO will slow the diesels with a 2% or so smaller restrictor and 20kg wieght penelty and the petrol cars may get a 2% bigger restrictor but no weight change

Audi and Peugeot wont be happy with this!
They've just build brand new cars, build after certain restrictor sizes and weight. Changing these without giving the manufactures time to adjust, might upset a fine balance!?