The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[cmk]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

How about Lucas Luhr's partner in the 2011 GTR GT1, Krum?

Michael Krumm's a NISMO driver.

[GTfour]

Toyota should go all out in 2014, just like they did in '98 and '99.
Why hold back now? I mean, Porsche and Audi will again post devestating line ups, attacking with three LMP1 missiles. If Toyota wants to make a serious effort, they should go with three cars.
Don't forget that in '98 and '99 Toyota nearly managed to win Le Mans outright. It was basically bad luck that stopped them from taking the top spot...

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Don't forget that in '98 and '99 Toyota nearly managed to win Le Mans outright. It was basically bad luck that stopped them from taking the top spot...

Without luck, you weren't ever really close to winning Le Mans at all in my eyes

You can't really buy luck. You either get all your bad luck out of the way by repeatedly entering Le Mans, or you learn to tame certain things to make sure bad luck has a minimal impact.

Toyota kind of missed the point in '98 and '99. The latter I will admit was particularly unlucky...but if they had a third crack in 2000, who knows what they could have done with what they learned?

I've also been a bit miffed with Toyota's spending at times, but thinking about it, if you were on the board at Toyota...why would you give TMG much more money? They're supposedly running on a pitiful budget compared to Audi, yet they've been able to beat them. Ignoring the WEC and focussing on LM, they had the pure pace in 2012 to fight for a few hours, and the reliability and strategy to finish a close second in 2013. They've never been closer to winning Le Mans. TMG are doing a fantastic job.

As for Porsche? I'm not convinced they'll be much of a threat in 2013 in the first half of the season. Taking the name out of it, it's a completely new operation. As such, I doubt they'd enter three cars at Le Mans.

[Acid09]

Hasn't Porsche pretty much confirmed that they will only run two cars next year? I seem to recall something like that.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Hasn't Porsche pretty much confirmed that they will only run two cars next year? I seem to recall something like that.

As far as I know, there has indeed been no word from Porsche about a three-car assault at LM.

[TF110]

I think Toyota has a huge benefit with the opening up of these hybrid powertrains in terms of output. That supercapacitor can pack a punch. So much so that Vasselon says the rear tires would be under too much strain. So logically theyll move to awd. Its going to be interesting to see (if they go 8mj) how much power they claim next year. Right now at full song its 300hp for ~2.2 seconds.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think Toyota has a huge benefit with the opening up of these hybrid powertrains in terms of output. That supercapacitor can pack a punch. So much so that Vasselon says the rear tires would be under too much strain. So logically theyll move to awd. Its going to be interesting to see (if they go 8mj) how much power they claim next year. Right now at full song its 300hp for ~2.2 seconds.

Hybrid power is only one part of the equation. If Toyota do really go for double KERS on the front and rear axles (which is more or less officially confirmed I understand) and opt for the 8MJ option, the combined power of the two KERS will likely be in the range of 450 kW (600 HP). That would equate to just under 18 seconds of hybrid boost. That means that most of a lap at LM will have to be performed with the combustion engine alone. We will see if that is the most appropriate hybrid solution under the new rules considering the stricter fuel efficiency requirements.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Hybrid power is only one part of the equation. If Toyota do really go for double KERS on the front and rear axles (which is more or less officially confirmed I understand) and opt for the 8MJ option, the combined power of the two KERS will likely be in the range of 450 kW (600 HP). That would equate to just under 18 seconds of hybrid boost. That means that most of a lap at LM will have to be performed with the combustion engine alone. We will see if that is the most appropriate hybrid solution under the new rules considering the stricter fuel efficiency requirements.

If they opt for a AWD, do they have to follow the same 120km/h rules as Audis right?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

If they opt for a AWD, do they have to follow the same 120km/h rules as Audis right?

No, that rule is being scrapped for next year AFAIK, since cars can discharge recovered energy on both axles at the same time next year.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Hybrid power is only one part of the equation. If Toyota do really go for double KERS on the front and rear axles (which is more or less officially confirmed I understand) and opt for the 8MJ option, the combined power of the two KERS will likely be in the range of 450 kW (600 HP). That would equate to just under 18 seconds of hybrid boost. That means that most of a lap at LM will have to be performed with the combustion engine alone. We will see if that is the most appropriate hybrid solution under the new rules considering the stricter fuel efficiency requirements.

They already do most of the lap on the combustion engine, so not much difference. The fact that they have about 2.3 times as much hybrid power as this year with the 8mj option means they have plenty of power to rely on. They can scale it down to 300hp like they put out now and go for over 35 seconds of boost total on a lap from the hybrid. That imo could be 'race trim' to maximise the efficiency.

[Maelochs]

As TF110 mentions, likely there will be different power settings for the hybrid systems---sometimes the extra power could be used in a potentially tire-wrecking burst to get through traffic leaving a corner, or maybe ofr a longer duration at a lower level to take some of the load off the combustion engine, to stretch fuel.

I don't recall seeing anything in the rules which weould preclude this, and given the limits of tire technology, I would wonder if a full 300+ power blast to a set of tires wouldn't be counterproductive.

As I recall, Audi only tried double-stinting once at Bahrain and lost time doing so, while Toyota didn't even try. In the past, using more powerful motors, Peugeot and Audi could regularly double- and sometimes triple-stint.

This makes me wonder if that burst of hybrid power isn't taking tires just a little past what they can actually handle and increasing wear, and if even more power might do more harm than good.

[chernaudi]

Problem is that Audi routinely double stinted at Silverstone and Spa, and in fact were planning on possibly triple stinting at Silverstone. Toyota had troubles at Silverstone because of set up issues and their LM spec car at Spa struggled due to it's low downforce bodywork not helping to keep the car planted in faster corners.

We saw this with Audi and Toyota last year--that as the season wore on post LM, both had more and more troubles with double stinting. Could it be Michelin not keeping up with tire development to go along with improvements that Audi and Toyota have fitted, or could it be the nature of the tracks? It seems that the Tilke-drome F1 tracks--with long straights linked by slow corners which increases reliance on mechanical grip--may be harder on tires than a Silverstone, Spa, Le Mans or COTA.

Also, at LM, Audi quadruple and even quintuple stinted, while Toyota quadruple stinted. Both teams did that routinely during the race when it was dry.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Problem is that Audi routinely double stinted at Silverstone and Spa, and in fact were planning on possibly triple stinting at Silverstone. Toyota had troubles at Silverstone because of set up issues and their LM spec car at Spa struggled due to it's low downforce bodywork not helping to keep the car planted in faster corners.

We saw this with Audi and Toyota last year--that as the season wore on post LM, both had more and more troubles with double stinting. Could it be Michelin not keeping up with tire development to go along with improvements that Audi and Toyota have fitted, or could it be the nature of the tracks? It seems that the Tilke-drome F1 tracks--with long straights linked by slow corners which increases reliance on mechanical grip--may be harder on tires than a Silverstone, Spa, Le Mans or COTA.

Also, at LM, Audi quadruple and even quintuple stinted, while Toyota quadruple stinted. Both teams did that routinely during the race when it was dry.

At silverstone, double stinting #1 was overtaken by Allan McNish on fresher rubber. The Audi never manage to double stint without losing time so it seems like a gamble under certain circumstances. (Super Ben in 2011 excluded, though )

[chernaudi]

You do seem to forget that Allan's late race stop was because of flat spotting his tires when he spun to avoid a slower car. Ben's Audi was struggling with a non-functioning hybrid system, and Allan's spin happened so late that I'd bet that Audi put him on the softest tires that Michelin had on hand.

Also, Ben was doing essentially a triple stint (2.5 stints on his last set of tires) to take advantage of a fuel strategy. McNish was let off the leash, probably on soft tires like PLM in '08, to try and win the race.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

You do seem to forget that Allan's late race stop was because of flat spotting his tires when he spun to avoid a slower car. Ben's Audi was struggling with a non-functioning hybrid system, and Allan's spin happened so late that I'd bet that Audi put him on the softest tires that Michelin had on hand.

Also, Ben was doing essentially a triple stint (2.5 stints on his last set of tires) to take advantage of a fuel strategy. McNish was let off the leash, probably on soft tires like PLM in '08, to try and win the race.

I can't remember who was on board at silverstone, but what I am talking about Ben is his double stinting tires at Le Mans 2011. As for silverstone this year, was it Andre behind the wheel? But Audi's time do drop significantly on older tyres as well as TS030 this year

[Mal]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

I can't remember who was on board at silverstone, but what I am talking about Ben is his double stinting tires at Le Mans 2011. As for silverstone this year, was it Andre behind the wheel? But Audi's time do drop significantly on older tyres as well as TS030 this year

The 2011 car was not Hybrid.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Problem is that Audi routinely double stinted at Silverstone and Spa, and in fact were planning on possibly triple stinting at Silverstone. Toyota had troubles at Silverstone because of set up issues and their LM spec car at Spa struggled due to it's low downforce bodywork not helping to keep the car planted in faster corners.

We saw this with Audi and Toyota last year--that as the season wore on post LM, both had more and more troubles with double stinting. Could it be Michelin not keeping up with tire development to go along with improvements that Audi and Toyota have fitted, or could it be the nature of the tracks? It seems that the Tilke-drome F1 tracks--with long straights linked by slow corners which increases reliance on mechanical grip--may be harder on tires than a Silverstone, Spa, Le Mans or COTA.

Also, at LM, Audi quadruple and even quintuple stinted, while Toyota quadruple stinted. Both teams did that routinely during the race when it was dry.

LeMans is much less demanding on tires. Thats why they can go 4 stints on the same set. At Silverstone Toyota used the 2012 tires on their 2012 car. Once on the 2013 tires they had no issue. At Spa Toyota double stinted the #7 at the 2nd stop, the #8 double stinted as well.

[Victor_RO]

Mike Conway poached from Delta-ADR/G-Drive and signed by Toyota as test/reserve driver for 2014.

EDIT: This will most likely mean that he'll be substituting for Kaz Nakajima whenever FNippon/Super Formula/whatever-it's-called-nowadays events clash with any WEC round, and if the rumours about the third car at Le Mans are true, I suspect he'll be racing in that one.

[Simmi]

Good news that Mike is staying in sportscars.

I too saw this and immediately thought about a third car at Le Mans. Make it happen Toyota bosses!

[Hawkwood]

Good news for Conway, he's got a good (and hopefully long) future in sportscars.

[TF110]

If theyre signing new people, hopefully that means their budget is increased. Maybe that will lead to a third car. In the autosport article, Kinosh ta San says "...car for 2014 and Beyond". Sounds good to me! Hopefully they stay around for a good while and win LeMans, maybe more than once.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by TF110

If theyre signing new people, hopefully that means their budget is increased. Maybe that will lead to a third car. In the autosport article, Kinosh ta San says "...car for 2014 and Beyond". Sounds good to me! Hopefully they stay around for a good while and win LeMans, maybe more than once.

There was a link on here somewhere linking to a french forum where someone said that Toyota had applied for a third entry at the 24 hours. So there may be some truth in that.

[gwyllion]

Applying for an entry does not mean that they will have the budget to actually start the race. This year Toyota also had two full season entries in the WEC, but the second car missed Sao Paulo and COTA.

[joeb]

Are the aco accepting entries for 2014 already? I thought that happened a little bit later.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by joeb

Are the aco accepting entries for 2014 already? I thought that happened a little bit later.

They probably start accepting entries in early December, the deadline is mid-January and the entries are announced at either the end of January or early February.