full course yellows and time spent on cleaning track...

[djb]

to begin with, I dont follow NASCAR and have only seen a few bits of races and parts or whole of the Montreal Nationwide races.

Something that always gets me is how the full course yellows are ssooooooooo interminably long at the Montreal races. Compared to all other road circuit racing I have followed for well over 30 years, if just really does seem that the nascar guys drag teh whole thing out for a ridiculous amount of time and laps.

I guess this is a big diff between nascar (primarliy an oval thing) and pure road racing, as it seems that the idea of having delays is done on purpose, and I cant fathom why it goes on for so long. I am sure part of this is the whole "restart" excitement thing, or ad breaks, or something, but it certainly does had on a heck of a lot of time and laps to a race like Montreal that for someone like me who follows F1, motogp, Lemans, etc etc etc, it is quite baffling of why the "clean up" and safety car periods are so drawn out.

the other thing is the whole punting off from behind thing that goes on, again, it really does seem that it is specifically allowed just to create drama and tensions, as other racing series generally dont allow so much unpunished "rubbin" as it is called without getting penalized. I dunno, I have gotten a kick out of watching the Montreal races recently, but there are so many times I end up swearing at the tv screen because of what I perceive as amateur hour behaviour , either on track or by the race officials, as it all just seems to be artificially dragging everything out for so long and holding up the racing.

I guess it comes down to a different culture of racing, but today especially, the long drawn out full course yellows seemed to be just plain excessive. Now, I dont know if the track workers and such (repair trucks etc) are not a numerous as with other types of racing (coming down to budget I mean, less perhaps costs less money) but without getting into how long it takes to move a bloody crashed car into an escape road, it seems rather odd for it to take so long to broom off debris off a track, whether it be F1 or Nascar, and the montreal races have shown it to take oodles and oodles of time more (or as it seems to me). I dont know if any of you follow other types of racing, but for me, the concept of "pure" racing is getting crashed cars off the track right away, like right away. Not looking under the hood, humming and hawing, or following some union or whoknowswhat rules for cleaning off debris--you do it as fast as possible to minimize the time taken away from full on racing. Orchestration is what came to my mind at a few times in todays race and it just isnt pure racing for me.

thoughts?

[amidst tundra]

NASCAR is a gimmick. I got tired of watching drivers that had been s*** all day winning because of the "lucky dog" and "green and white chequers." Any time some chance of interesting fuel/tire strategy would come to the fore you'd get a phantom caution for some insignificant debris. NASCAR manipulate every aspect of their races to make them more "exciting," but for me the whole deal falls flat because I enjoy pit strategy, I enjoy long green flag runs that seperate the better cars, but by-and-large I'm in the minority and I just switched off. NASCAR is to motorsport what WWE is to wrestling, except, while NASCAR was entertaining back in it's day, these days the races just seem very 2D and manicured for a grandstand finish or big wreck.

Like you say, it's a different culture of racing and I'm not the type to bait NASCAR fans because I used to be one, but the above grievances are basically what turned me off. Full course cautions for inoccuous reasons on road courses are absurd, let alone the multiple caution laps it's like health and safety on steroids.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by amidst tundra

NASCAR is a gimmick. I got tired of watching drivers that had been s*** all day winning because of the "lucky dog" and "green and white chequers." Any time some chance of interesting fuel/tire strategy would come to the fore you'd get a phantom caution for some insignificant debris. NASCAR manipulate every aspect of their races to make them more "exciting," but for me the whole deal falls flat because I enjoy pit strategy, I enjoy long green flag runs that seperate the better cars, but by-and-large I'm in the minority and I just switched off. NASCAR is to motorsport what WWE is to wrestling, except, while NASCAR was entertaining back in it's day, these days the races just seem very 2D and manicured for a grandstand finish or big wreck.

Like you say, it's a different culture of racing and I'm not the type to bait NASCAR fans because I used to be one, but the above grievances are basically what turned me off. Full course cautions for inoccuous reasons on road courses are absurd, let alone the multiple caution laps it's like health and safety on steroids.

Sad that the two biggest four wheel motorsports in the world right now are basically entertainment series. F1 internally manipulates the outcome of their races through Pirelli tire wear, DRS, KERS, ect and NASCAR does it externally with yellow flags, lucky dogs ect, although last weekend's cup race was a refreshing change, more of that and I'd watch every race. I have a feeling DTM isn't that legit either, find it strange just how "perfect" the parity is between the three manufacturers without listed BoP.

[Paradise City]

They should codify a different set of yellow flag procedures for the roadcourses and stick to that standard. .

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Sad that the two biggest four wheel motorsports in the world right now are basically entertainment series. F1 internally manipulates the outcome of their races through Pirelli tire wear, DRS, KERS, ect and NASCAR does it externally with yellow flags, lucky dogs ect, although last weekend's cup race was a refreshing change, more of that and I'd watch every race. I have a feeling DTM isn't that legit either, find it strange just how "perfect" the parity is between the three manufacturers without listed BoP.

QFT.

[djb]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

F1 internally manipulates the outcome of their races through Pirelli tire wear, DRS, KERS, ect and NASCAR does it externally with yellow flags, lucky dogs ect

all that stuff I can handle, its across the board for everyone, it is finite and determined by a drs zone, whatever juice you have with kers or whatever...

but the seemingly constant bump and spin drives me up the wall with its unsanctioned cowboy rules (kinda a nudge nudge wink wink sort of good old boy laissez faire self imposed rules going on here--you know, driver X says driver Y is getting too uppitty and so he's gonna get whats comin to him , sort of thing)

throw in the drawn out yellers and its enough to make me curse like a drunken syphillitic sailor.

then you have the commentators going on about "how these cars just cant brake and turn at the same time, you gotta brake in a straight line...." geeeez louise, its called ROAD RACING, and whatever the car, the better drivers with talent can balance the things, whether its a nascar car or a Citroen 2CV.....

I just need to remind myself that this is mass entertainment, but watching it on a course such as Montreal (which I know very well, saw the 1979, 80 F1 race there) and I ride my bike on it often) I just hoped for better and I guess it shows my lack of knowledge of the Nascar way of dealing with things.

Oh, at the start of the race, Nascar even sanctioned in a priest to do a pre-race prayer----this is sooooo soooo American and frankly it shocked me, we just dont do that sort of thing up here, church is church, state is state, and sport is sport. I was embarressed that this obvious detail in the contract even got a prayer to a God in the deal.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by djb

all that stuff I can handle, its across the board for everyone, it is finite and determined by a drs zone, whatever juice you have with kers or whatever...

but the seemingly constant bump and spin drives me up the wall with its unsanctioned cowboy rules (kinda a nudge nudge wink wink sort of good old boy laissez faire self imposed rules going on here--you know, driver X says driver Y is getting too uppitty and so he's gonna get whats comin to him , sort of thing)

throw in the drawn out yellers and its enough to make me curse like a drunken syphillitic sailor.

then you have the commentators going on about "how these cars just cant brake and turn at the same time, you gotta brake in a straight line...." geeeez louise, its called ROAD RACING, and whatever the car, the better drivers with talent can balance the things, whether its a nascar car or a Citroen 2CV.....

I just need to remind myself that this is mass entertainment, but watching it on a course such as Montreal (which I know very well, saw the 1979, 80 F1 race there) and I ride my bike on it often) I just hoped for better and I guess it shows my lack of knowledge of the Nascar way of dealing with things.

Oh, at the start of the race, Nascar even sanctioned in a priest to do a pre-race prayer----this is sooooo soooo American and frankly it shocked me, we just dont do that sort of thing up here, church is church, state is state, and sport is sport. I was embarressed that this obvious detail in the contract even got a prayer to a God in the deal.

But it's still a gimmick, to make the racing more "exciting", also, yes I'm agnostic but still respect their right to pray before a race. Just like Formula 1 has no seperation of sport/politics with local governments spending hundreds of millions on F1 Grand Prixs while cutting education like in Montreal, and don't get me started on the BGP. Let's be honest, it's so politicians like the Fake Liberal Charest can hang with Ecclestone's freak show and the rich/famous. Economic impact figures are such BS and have always been repudiated by both legit economists and honest political figures. NASCAR obviously has no seperation of sport and relgion/politics.

Just trying to compare it to F1, don't watch much of NASCAR, and I assume that's what you mostly watch.

[amidst tundra]

Originally Posted by djb

but the seemingly constant bump and spin drives me up the wall with its unsanctioned cowboy rules (kinda a nudge nudge wink wink sort of good old boy laissez faire self imposed rules going on here--you know, driver X says driver Y is getting too uppitty and so he's gonna get whats comin to him , sort of thing)

I think you are referring to the painfully ambiguous "Boys Have At It" rule. To be honest I can live with the bump and run, it's not too different to the BTCC, which in my opinion is basically peopled by some of the worst drivers in motorsport these days (Plato vs. Neal), but when a guy gets wrecked either by accident or stupidity, why do NASCAR allow them to go back on track, trailing bodywork and 20 laps down, for the sole purpose of settling a vendetta?

Drivers using their cars as weapons to play up to the NASCAR pantomime will get somebody killed one day, look at what Kyle Busch did to Ron Hornaday in the trucks last year, anyone in their right mind would have parked him indefinitely or the wrecking on the final lap, like Carl Edwards vs. Brad Keselowski in the Gateway Nationwide race that basically totalled half the field - it was a miracle nobody was badly hurt. It's basically the guy running from stage left with a chair in WWE, beating on a scripted rival who has wronged him in some way in the distant past of a numbered event. Except in NASCAR the potential to be hurt is far greater.

Give me a non-manufactured race without all the main stage theatrics and maybe I'd turn back on.

Originally Posted by djb

Oh, at the start of the race, Nascar even sanctioned in a priest to do a pre-race prayer----this is sooooo soooo American and frankly it shocked me, we just dont do that sort of thing up here, church is church, state is state, and sport is sport. I was embarressed that this obvious detail in the contract even got a prayer to a God in the deal.

State is state, but they still play the Canadian national anthem before NHL games, in the UK you'd never get "God save the Queen" before a Premier League game kicked off, but it's a different culture and while I'd debate racing, I wouldn't criticize others customs.

[IceMan_PJN]

Originally Posted by djb

the other thing is the whole punting off from behind thing that goes on, again, it really does seem that it is specifically allowed just to create drama and tensions, as other racing series generally dont allow so much unpunished "rubbin" as it is called without getting penalized.

This isn't intended to speak of all NASCAR fans, but a very large number of them seem to fit into today's ADD culture where you need constant stimulation, so they must have people shuffling positions all the time, need cars banging around, and need some wrecks to entertain them. It isn't about the driving or driving skill but about amusement. It would be preferred that you wreck me out versus overtaking me fairly by outdriving me because spinning me off the track is more entertaining to the viewer and makes it look like you're tearing through the field with a hunger and passion to win at all cost. If you can't beat me, run me off the track because the fans will love it, and they'll either praise you for your passion or, at least depending on your car number, ridicule you, but either way they're entertained.

Somehow banging into everybody is dismissed as "rubbin' is racin'", and it gets you pats on the back. If you're driving down the street and are banging into other cars, signs, light posts, fences and buildings, you're obviously a horrible driver, but if you're banging into everything in a Cup car you're one of the greatest, most talented drivers in the universe (why stop at Earth?).

[FordCosworthPanoz]

I just find it funny that NASCAR get's called "entertainment/wwe" by the same people who watch a sport that now is almost entirely based on gimmicks and many drivers putting 100% into not putting 100% . Both are filled with gimmicks and less-motorsport interested fans yet NASCAR gets more of the heat because it's more (In the typical American fashion) 'In your face.' Both fanbases spend crazy (F1 is much more guility of this) prices on tickets/hotels to races while there are so much better offers elsewhere in lesser-known series and club races. I haven't been to a Grand Prix since 2008 after attending for 15 years straight, haven't been to NASCAR (one of only two times i went) since 2009. Been to various other better valued race meetings though that actually have access to the drivers/teams that actually seem to give a remote damn about you the fan.

Take away the lipstick, and NASCAR and F1 have more in common than almost any other motorsport. Both motorsports have gotten too big to be considered real "motorsports" and are instead corporate sponsored entertainment.

[Paradise City]

People who praise Formula Penelope Pitstop [aka F1] and knock NASCAR on grounds of being 'entertainment' give away their credibility.

It comes down to sports world-wide morphing into commercial businesses and investment vehicles. The owners of such sports are willing to do virtually anything to squeeze that extra buck out of the sport they own. If that means turning the sport upside down to this end, they'll do it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

I just find it funny that NASCAR get's called "entertainment/wwe" by the same people who watch a sport that now is almost entirely based on gimmicks and many drivers putting 100% into not putting 100% . Both are filled with gimmicks and less-motorsport interested fans yet NASCAR gets more of the heat because it's more (In the typical American fashion) 'In your face.' Both fanbases spend crazy (F1 is much more guility of this) prices on tickets/hotels to races while there are so much better offers elsewhere in lesser-known series and club races. I haven't been to a Grand Prix since 2008 after attending for 15 years straight, haven't been to NASCAR (one of only two times i went) since 2009. Been to various other better valued race meetings though that actually have access to the drivers/teams that actually seem to give a remote damn about you the fan.

Take away the lipstick, and NASCAR and F1 have more in common than almost any other motorsport. Both motorsports have gotten too big to be considered real "motorsports" and are instead corporate sponsored entertainment.

Couldn't agree more - GREAT POST!


YOu have to go down to grass roots club racing to find the spirit of motorsport, and it only usually remains until it becomes commercially interesting to large corporates and then they hi-jack it!

[fieldodreams79]

To the OP, don't ask questions about NASCAR. The black suburbans should have come and taken you away by now.

NASCAR runs full course yellows at road courses like they run yellow flags on Speedways; over cautiously. Every little bit of debris or slight break in the rhythm (car turned around), they throw a full course yellow; no real concept of local yellows or debris flags apparently. When the yellow is thrown, they have to get every little piece of debris off the circuit and get the order set.

That said, the caution periods take too much time and happen too often, even on the speedways. Why? We'll never know; its NASCAR.

[leothedrummer]

As a long-time fan of motorsport of all levels who got into NASCAR quite late (nearly 10 years after I took a serious interest to racing), I regularly find myself pondering this very situation - how can this series and it's fans be so remarkably different to every other?

There is one possible explanation that I keep coming back to and I'm curious to know the thoughts of others. That theory is that somewhere along the line, NASCAR grew larger than simply being a race series watched by race fans and became a form of weekly entertainment watched by people who don't necessarily have an understanding or appreciation for motorsport itself. It has become too successful. I've never been to a NASCAR race (or America for that matter), but from what I've gathered from various forums and the coverage of the races themselves, it seems that there is a massive number of NASCAR fans who have basically zero interest in cars, mechanics, or driving at all. The difference here is that one could suggest that most fans of other forms of motorsport are more likely to have a reasonable level of mechanical knowledge, an appreciation for the cars themselves and an understanding of the ins and outs of racecraft itself.

In other words, whilst other forms of motorsport can only be considered to be a niche market with a very specific fanbase, has NASCAR become so big as to break out from this trend? It certainly is the impression I get from forums and commentators. If this is case, then it makes it a bit easier to understand why NASCAR does certain things in the way that they do.....but for a genuine race fan, it doesn't make it any less disappointing.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

TThat said, the caution periods take too much time and happen too often, even on the speedways. Why? We'll never know; its NASCAR.

More time for TV to have [even longer] ad breaks and for crowds to step up from their seats and spend money?

[amidst tundra]

I don't see anyone professing a love for Formula 1 here... I'm a sportscars, prototypes and GT fan. I used to enjoy NASCAR and from that standpoint feel I have a right to complain.

[St00ge]

aren't the long yellows on road courses due to having lead lap and lapped car pitting separately like they do on ovals?? so that's going to soak up a couple of laps then they have to get them all lined and before they can go off..

I just accept that Nascar do things things different, enjoy it for what it is and get on with life

[FordCosworthPanoz]

And I didn't mean to put myself above anybody or insult others like I apparently did in my "Silverstone WEC 2012" post.

Just making sure...

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Is that a man or a woman?? Just curious...

Unless that is a Manzier, i assume its a woman... or was at one point.

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Is that your back?!

You know i only wear black bras.

[amidst tundra]

From what I've gleaned from American sports is that the crowd apparently like long periods of nothing happening: Baseball, Basketball, American Football (I actually enjoy the NFL). Probably why Ice Hockey is not as popular Stateside... too much happening, too few breaks in the play.

I become comatose watching 6 or 7 10+ minute cautions and, watching in the States, get ready for as many commercials as racing action. That was really what turned me off. Mercifully the British NFL coverage is great because they cut back to the studio and we get some analysis as opposed to the same five adverts being repeated ad nauseum for three hours.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by amidst tundra

From what I've gleaned from American sports is that the crowd apparently like long periods of nothing happening: Baseball, Basketball, American Football (I actually enjoy the NFL). Probably why Ice Hockey is not as popular Stateside... too much happening, too few breaks in the play.

I become comatose watching 6 or 7 10+ minute cautions and, watching in the States, get ready for as many commercials as racing action. That was really what turned me off. Mercifully the British NFL coverage is great because they cut back to the studio and we get some analysis as opposed to the same five adverts being repeated ad nauseum for three hours.

Comming from the country that invented cricket, this is pushing it a bit!

[gregtummer]

Part of the problem is that when you do 35mph under caution around a 2.7 mile road course and a 4 mile road course at Road America, it is going to take forever to do a lap.

[gomick]

Should have plenty of time to clean up the mess then... They do mess around!