[LM24] Le Mans Track Safety

[Osella]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Story is right there if you click on the link that the pic provides.

thanks!

[deggis]

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...ejerk-changes/

Free part of the article has the best part:

Yet surely now is not the time for some knee-jerk reaction. A measured approach is required at the same time as a renewed acknowledgement that the Circuit de la Sarthe is always going to be a more dangerous place than your average race track.

[Purist]

Deggis, there is no conflict. I have seen VERY few, if any, incidents at major meetings where the gravel itself triggered a flip. I've seen bad grading of the verges cause it, or cars launching off curbs, or wheel-to-wheel contact launch a car, and the car ending up in a gravel bed.

Tarmac run-off seems to have become part of the polished, corporate image of F1. Gravel is messy; tarmac is clean, can be painted all sorts of pretty colors, and cars running over it won't mess up the artistic design of the run-off. It's also for the show, since in F1, cars don't get restarted. It's a convenience issue to help the show by keeping more cars in the race. it is NOT a safety matter as such. And if you want an F1 race at all, you tend to go with what is Bernie's preference for upholding the "image" of F1.

Again, tarmac does NOT arrest errant vehicles at all well. Another thing you seem to forget, is that in many cases where tarmac run-off is added, they've also simply remodeled the run-offs to make them larger. So, it's an apples to oranges comparison in that critical aspect, but in reality, the gravel is capable of doing a better job of slowing wayward cars, and does so within a smaller area. Practically speaking, unless you have a HUGE buffer zone you can draw upon around your track, the F1 method is impossible, and not very cost effective either.

Werner, fear probably is a component, but a track is respected if, and only if, the drivers HAVE TO respect it. (The most respected tracks also tend to be the best-loved circuits as well.) The stewards have been incapable of maintaining that standard. To keep the great tracks great, the laws of physics, harsh as they are, will provide that standard, without fail.

Even without the concern for injury coming into it, you'd think a driver would want to avoid doing something ill-advised if they KNOW that they WILL BE out of contention if they make such a boneheaded mistake. Again, it's that virtual GUARANTEE that your race will be effectively over if you really foul up that is so powerful. If you think you might slip past the stewards, or just use the run-off as an extension of the track, and thus "get away with it", you will continue to conduct yourself to a poorer standard on-track, period.

The surroundings of the public road sections will not be obliterated to make room for run-off and verges at Le Mans; that simply will not happen. The barriers have to be there, have to be small enough in footprint to fit, and will probably have to remain where they are. I'm not sure anything other than guardrail can meet those requirements. SAFER barriers, I suspect, would have too much depth, especially since they'll have to be mounted to another, more robust wall of some kind. Concrete walls would just make it look awful, like an American street circuit, and would likely also have a large enough footprint to be a problem. In addition, I don't think they would have enough give to be safe for the drivers in more direct impacts.

You SEVERELY underestimate the human desire to get "home", or remain in the perceived safe zone (i.e. the track surface). As such, even when there are HUGE run-offs (Riverside esses anybody?), drivers will try to stay on the road no matter what! If they get off the road, they try to get back on, even when they're not fully under control. In this way it's actually VERY easy to see how guys who never hit a barrier, regardless of run-off or verge, can still get cleaned up by someone coming along behind them. As long as that human instinct is present, this scenario will continue to be a significant worry.

It reminds me of the International Vintage Sailplane Meet last year at Elmira, New York. The main field is a veritable postage stamp atop an 800ft hill. There is a perfectly good auxillary field in the valley below, if you can't make it back "home". However, time and again, pilots who know better try there damndest to make it back to the top, even when it's clear that that is NOT a good idea. One pilot badly overshot the main field twice, and was asked to leave. Two others tried to milk it too far, stalled on approach, and snapped their planes in half when they hit ground.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Purist

The surroundings of the public road sections will not be obliterated to make room for run-off and verges at Le Mans; that simply will not happen.

Arnage corner was adjusted just two years ago, after the ACO bought the property from the locals a gravel trap on the left hand side was erected to provide more run off area. Cars now run into and trough the gravel, dragging the sharp stones onto the road on the run towards the Porsche curves - not sure if this improved overall safety...

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Arnage corner was adjusted just two years ago, after the ACO bought the property from the locals a gravel trap on the left hand side was erected to provide more run off area. Cars now run into and trough the gravel, dragging the sharp stones onto the road on the run towards the Porsche curves - not sure if this improved overall safety...

I agree. That corner is taken so slowly, that I can't remember any serious accidents in my time at Le Mans. The worst you'd get is someone overcooking it and going straight on.

[Peat]

^ That was the most baffling thing they have done recently. A very slow corner with a slow approach.

[wewantourdarbyback]

There's a good article for Autosport+ subscribers on the need not to make knee jerk reactions at the moment.

Edit: Deggis got there first

[Djcomix]

Hello all !
Sorry for my English.
that was some times quite difficult all the sentences that were on this post.

I think that we all agree that le mans will not be le mans without a part of the track on public roads.
how many races we can find like it ?

I think that the ACO will study what caused the death of Alan.
As some of you i think that the tree is one of the factors of his death.
They surely find a good way to correct this.
i'll tell you when i see it because my wife work near le tertre rouge.

The other factor is an error of the driver. We can't avoid it.
it's a race and what said Henri Pescarolo is we know we can die while you make a race.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by Peat

^ That was the most baffling thing they have done recently. A very slow corner with a slow approach.

The only situation I can think of that would lead to a heavy impact there would be a brake failure or throttle sticking open. Even then the amount of runoff they've put the wouldn't be enough to arrest a car at full tilt. It does t make much sense to me.

[Sodemo]

I think the tragic irony is that if the barrier was closer to the track and actually followed the line of the corner, there is a chance that he would have survived the impact as the angle of impact would have been not as "head on".

[Tim the Grey]

I think I would second this... At least move it forward away from the trees?

[racerkeke]

Just what I was thinking, Tim. Move it forward enough that they can put tire wall between the trees and the Armco. Or replace the Armco completely with tire wall (esp with matting on the trackside face). Probably have to back it with Armco for bracing, but I bet the locals would scream bloody murder if they tried to take the trees out.

Re the gravel traps, guys, get over it. Keep the car on the black bit and it ain't a problem. At the second chicane we have cars skip thru (or into) that gravel every year. Usually it's because of a failure BEFORE the gravel. I don't think we've ever had one flip in ten years. And I ain't goin' out there to sweep. I'm a volunteer. They're professionals, make 'em act like it.

That said, I was alarmed at the number of shutdowns (whether red flag or full course yellow) required to repair Armco. I'd like to see some thought put into fixing that for 2014.
keke

[Fiorentina 1]

I don't recall so many Armco repairs in the past. This year it was ridiculous how many yellow/red flags there were for armco repair during the week. A safer barrier type deal, like on American oval tracks, up against the Armco's at Tertre Rouge 'exit kink' would probably do the trick.

[Purist]

I think I'd put a banded tire barrier, of the sort they use at Eau Rouge, in front of the Armco on the outside of Tertre Rouge, between the two apexes. That would cover the main danger zone there.

Moving the rail forward would mean drilling post holes in the highway shoulder, which isn't even close to full width at that point, and I don't see them doing that.

Coach, they have been able to do a parcel here or there, but they will never convert anywhere near the whole 5.5 miles of public road into that. A few places of special concern will likely get something worked out. The great majority of the circuit from Tertre Rouge around to the entry of the Porsche Curves, however, will remain within very limited confines. Drivers will have to stay on their toes out there, as it should be.

Dunlop, the problem is a cimbination of the changes to the cars, coupled with more high-speed corners on a track that is supposed to be dominated by long straights. More time can be gained in those extra corners than can be picked up by going faster down the straights. At the same time, new aero rules often make the cars less aero efficient (more drag per pound of downforce produced), and the Prototypes have seen their power cut. This drastically increases the "necessity" to take higher-risk moves in traffic, because you can't afford to lose as much momentum anymore. In addition, the privateer LMP1s, plus all of the LMP2s, struggle to get by a number of the GTs on the straights. So, they're left with their primary advantage being in braking zones, initial acceleration, and speed through high-speed corners.

So, you've made these potentially more hazardous areas of the track substantially more enticing to attempt, and critical in, overtaking maneuvers, often out of necessity, given the performance characteristics of the present cars. Then, you've applied the dichotomy of those several long straights to try and make teams have a compromised setup. It's not surprising that there have been problems. And no, if it was purely the technical challenge of those high-speed corners that was causing this, we'd see the same issues, to a similar extent, at other circuits. In particular, you would expect to see it at Spa-Francorchamps. You would probably see pronounced signs of it at Interlagos as well.

As to the Armco, does anybody have pictures to compare the old stuff with the newer rails? Again, there was mention in the race thread of a different design for the newer guardrailing, and it would be extremely helpful to see just how the two differ.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by Purist

I think I'd put a banded tire barrier, of the sort they use at Eau Rouge, on the outside of Tertre Rouge, between the two apexes. That would cover the main danger zone there.

If your going to use that solution I'd suggest TECHPRO barriers instead, with them there's no chance of glancing one and getting an odd bounce off.

[Purist]

The banded barriers of the kind I mentioned have a very small rebound, especially compared to the older types of tire walls. Also, for the driver, some amount of rebound is good for the purpose of energy dissipation. Although, this is rather tricky on the exit of a corner like Tertre Rouge, with limited space. However, where Simonsen hit was back a bit from the second apex, and a small rebound would not present a serious problem at that point.

The section where I said I would put the banded tires is before where the cars track out to driver's left. Even if you did track out from the second apex of Tertre Rouge, the barrier would have ceased by then, and normally, drivers don't take to the left lane until they exit the kink that follows the second portion of Tertre Rouge anyway. So, you wouldn't be over there in a position to hit that tire wall unless something had gone wrong, in which case, you're headed toward a more direct hit, and glancing back off into traffic is the least of your worries.

Also, on the F1 broadcast, they said that the barrier on the outside of Tabac at Monaco was TechPro, and there was certainly plenty of rebound and recoil with that wall. It recoiled from the impact, and blocked half the track, which caused a red flag so the marshals could reposition it.

Now, imagine exiting Tertre Rouge at easily over a buck, only to find this huge rubbery snake thing blocking a large part of the Mulsanne in front of you, because somebody just hit it. It's not a pretty picture.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by Purist

The banded barriers of the kind I mentioned have a very small rebound, especially compared to the older types of tire walls. Also, for the driver, some amount of rebound is good for the purpose of energy dissipation. Although, this is rather tricky on the exit of a corner like Tertre Rouge, with limited space. However, where Simonsen hit was back a bit from the second apex, and a small rebound would not present a serious problem at that point.

The section where I said I would put the banded tires is before where the cars track out to driver's left. Even if you did track out from the second apex of Tertre Rouge, the barrier would have ceased by then, and normally, drivers don't take to the left lane until they exit the kink that follows the second portion of Tertre Rouge anyway. So, you wouldn't be over there in a position to hit that tire wall unless something had gone wrong, in which case, you're headed toward a more direct hit, and glancing back off into traffic is the least of your worries.

Also, on the F1 broadcast, they said that the barrier on the outside of Tabac at Monaco was TechPro, and there was certainly plenty of rebound and recoil with that wall. It recoiled from the impact, and blocked half the track, which caused a red flag so the marshals could reposition it.

Now, imagine exiting Tertre Rouge at easily over a buck, only to find this huge rubbery snake thing blocking a large part of the Mulsanne in front of you, because somebody just hit it. It's not a pretty picture.

Not quite what I meant, I was more talking about driving straight, and if you glanced it it not being a flat surface and causing a potential hazard. TECHPRO is flat so could in theory be glanced without such adverse effects.

[Mal]

I will leave the solution to the experts - but - there should be no opportunity for a tree to interfere with any barrier doing its job.

[Mike E]

The timing of Webber’s Porsche announcement has got me thinking (not always a good thing!). Clearly Porsche and Webber had done a deal before the Le Mans weekend and the intention must always have been to announce his move this week with Le Mans in the headlines and a GP scheduled for the following weekend.

In light of comments attributed to Webber the last time he experienced the highs (literally) and subsequent lows of LM, ie he wouldn’t be coming back, and then the tragic events of this year’s race, the safety of the event must be something he is thinking about.

I read an interesting blog post a couple of days ago that Sam Hancock linked to on his Twitter feed. It was written by a doctor who also races. The article lays out the medical reasons for racing driver deaths, and speculates (quite reasonably) about the Simonsen crash. I ummed and ahhed about posting a link to the article when I read it but decided against it because it all felt a little close to the bone at the time. The article is necessarily blunt about the details of these causes of death. I have the link if anyone wants to read it.

One of the points raised in the blog is that drivers must speak up about safety if they feel it is being compromised. They are the ones putting their lives on the line for our entertainment.

In view of Webber’s previous involvement with the GPDA, his current persepective of Formula 1 standards generally, his high profile, and his habit of speaking his mind I wonder if he will become activley involved in safety discussions as soon as he makes the move to LMP1.

I’m not suggesting for a moment that the other drivers aren’t concerned about saftey or that the FIA/ACO don’t take it seriously but the high profile ‘defection’ of a leading F1 driver who has previously expressed concerns about safety at LM in the same week that a driver has lost his life at the track seems like a great opportunity to focus on this critical issue.

Does anyone know if there is a GPDA equivalent in the WEC?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Does anyone know if there is a GPDA equivalent in the WEC?

I dont think there is any need as the sportscar community seems much closer and therefore the need for the battle lines that are drawn by such organisations is not there.

With regard to safety compared to F1 it should also be noted that until last weekend the last death in the Le Mans race was long before the last one in F1

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Mal

With regard to safety compared to F1 it should also be noted that until last weekend the last death in the Le Mans race was long before the last one in F1

True re deaths in the race, but there was a fatal accident in prequalifying in 1997.

The general point I was trying to make was that every opportunity to improve safety should be taken and unfortunately more progress is usually made after something has gone badly wrong.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The general point I was trying to make was that every opportunity to improve safety should be taken and unfortunately more progress is usually made after something has gone badly wrong.