[LM24] 95 & 99 Aston crashes similar?

[Canada ALMS fan]

As we come to grips with the tragedy at Le Mans I don't want to start any controversy but does anyone else see similarities between the crashes of the 95 and 98 cars? Both of them seemed to aggressively snap left after losing traction on wet painted sections of the track.
It looks as though Allan was losing traction after hitting the throttle while on the painted curbing, not checking up as others have stated. Mako seemed to be on a road line. A couple of things: 1) did the new paint on the road this year cause traction issues? Hindy said they used a new, high grip formula 2) Could it have been something to do with the TC Aston may have been running or diff settings? To see 2 drivers of that calibre go off makes me wonder. Then again it could be a co-incidence.
Fred is very lucky to be ok as it appeared a huge hit. It is so tragic that Allan did not survive his impact. My thoughts go out to his family.

[Steptoe]

I didn't really want to dwell on what was a very sad weekend but my thoughts were exactly the same. Damp track combined with the new painted lines plus a tyre compound that is durable for longer with colder than normal track conditions. I would say that the Rebellion accident also looked to be very similar as it seemed to loose grip in a similar way to both the Aston incidents.
RIP Allan

[deggis]

To me looks like Makowiecki was already struggling with grip before he drives over the middle road marking line:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...fgJAPnBM#t=86s

Belicchi looks like it could have been because of the markings, obvious from the Toyota onboard behind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...V0qk3Qt0#t=34s

[deggis]

From another thread:

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

The thought was, the council replace the white lines on Route de Tours every year, just AFTER LM. The council, being a council, carried on this year, and did it just before...

Any source for this? I believe this, but still, a source would be nice.

[Peat]

Don't forget that, in the case of Mako & Bellichi, the road is quite heavily crowned in those sections.

I absolutely see the similarities between the accidents, but i don't think it's anything particularly unique to La Sarthe.

[Simmi]

Yeah we thought they looked very similar - albeit Mako was in the 99 not the 98.

[valedave]

My heart sank when I saw that Mako crash, both because it was the leading Aston but, above all, because I thought we might have seen a repeat of the earlier tragedy.

[Martin90]

Originally Posted by deggis

From another thread:

Any source for this? I believe this, but still, a source would be nice.

I heard this on Radio Le Mans as well (not the council thing, but at least that they repainted the white lines between test day and Le Mans.)

[Tim the Grey]

I heard on RLM about the white lines being painted.
I then extrapolated council behaviour...

[BanjoMaster]

I thought the vehicle behaviour in both instances were very, very similar, but like Steptoe it didn't seem the time or the place to voice it as, this being the internet, such observations can easily set the conspiracy hare running or mutate into something else entirely.

An awful lot of really big accidents again this year. Still struggling with how and why my favourite place has stolen one of my favourite drivers from us. As with most fans, it's not within my nature to go running for the 'health and safety' bell when it comes to the classic venues, but I would hope and suspect there is some very serious thinking and soul-searching going on at the ACO now. Motorsport is dangerous and always will be, but we can't have this happen again if there's anything at all we can do about it.

Not sure if this is the place for such a query, but can anyone direct me to a suitable site to leave some thoughts and condolences on Allan's death? Something that may actually reach the family? His little girl will never get to know her dad, but it would be nice if there was something there where she might one day get an idea of how many fans and admirers he had while he was alive. I think I'll stop now.

[valedave]

I'm sure David King (david DOT king AT astonmartin DOT com), head of Aston Martin Racing, would appreciate and pass on your thoughts and condolences.

I'm not aware of any public book of condolences anywhere online.

[Paradise City]

Dr. James Norman makes a provisional assessment from observation of footage and accounts of the particulars of the accident scene.

http://blog.parathyroid.com/race-car...racing-deaths/

Allan Simonsen. Although we do not know the actual cause of death of Alan Simonson at yesterday’s 24 Hours of Le Mans, reports are that he was conscious and talking when rescue workers first tended to him, only to have him become unconscious a few moments later, to be pronounced dead a short time later. He was driving in one of the most modern sedan-type cars (not open-cockpit) and his factory sponsored Aston Martin had every possible modern piece of safety equipment. This in car video from the car behind shows the likely cause (our opinion) of Allan’s crash was acceleration of the car while the left rear tire was on the “painted” (and very slick in the wet) blue line. His car veered suddenly to the right and then back to the left in an attempt to correct (opinion), but by then the car was out of control and it hit the armco (guard railing) on the outside of the track at a near-head-on trajectory (keep reading below). There was no evidence of penetrating injuries, and no evidence of blunt force trauma. Thus the likely cause of this terrible tragedy is almost certainly to be related to a sudden deceleration injury, either to the brain, or to the aorta.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Yeah we thought they looked very similar - albeit Mako was in the 99 not the 98.

Whoops, I knew that.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Dr. James Norman makes a provisional assessment from observation of footage and accounts of the particulars of the accident scene.

http://blog.parathyroid.com/race-car...racing-deaths/

Read that yesterday, overall good article to me at least but I don't get how he first reminds that it's not been officially confirmed and then states his educated guess as a fact.

[Beetle]

They were extremely similar, yes. I think it may be the balance of weight in the Aston Martins that sets them up to be rather snappy and loose during semi-wet track conditions. Also, it seems as though despite the driver's best efforts to correct the slide, it snaps further out of control.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

I heard on RLM about the white lines being painted.
I then extrapolated council behaviour...

Only on the public roads, Simonsen spun before the circuit rejoins public road.

I only just saw Mako's crash and I think it was very, very different. We await a verdict on what happened so I won't speculate what caused the incident, but what is different is the point of contact with the barriers.

The pictures of the 95 showed the chassis had been cracked and bent severely. Mako hit the barrier in a manner in which the car could pretty comfortably take the hit as it was designed to do.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Only on the public roads, Simonsen spun before the circuit rejoins public road.

I only just saw Mako's crash and I think it was very, very different. We await a verdict on what happened so I won't speculate what caused the incident, but what is different is the point of contact with the barriers.

The pictures of the 95 showed the chassis had been cracked and bent severely. Mako hit the barrier in a manner in which the car could pretty comfortably take the hit as it was designed to do.

A key difference is that in Mako's crash the barriers were able to deform as they were intended to, there wasn't a large tree pinned against them. Surely the crash of the 95 would have been much less severe had this been the case as much of the energy of the crash would not have been absorbed the driver.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Yeah we thought they looked very similar - albeit Mako was in the 99 not the 98.

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Whoops, I knew that.

Fixed.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Thanks Joe.

[Fiorentina 1]

According to this week's AutoSprint, the 95 hit the tree on the other side of the barrier.

[wolfhound]

The one thing that I found strange about both accidents was the cars did the opposite to what you would normally expect when putting power down coming out of a bend.
What I mean is that as you are coming off a right hand bend and loose grip at the rear the more heavily loaded left rear tyre looses grip causing the car to spin to the right, not the left as happened to the Aston Martins.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The one thing that I found strange about both accidents was the cars did the opposite to what you would normally expect when putting power down coming out of a bend.
What I mean is that as you are coming off a right hand bend and loose grip at the rear the more heavily loaded left rear tyre looses grip causing the car to spin to the right, not the left as happened to the Aston Martins.

It's not really to do with the loading of the left-rear though. The track was damp in both cases, as you correct the oversteer (turning left) the car initially continues forward, albeit it sliding. However, as the track grip was not uniform, as you hit a drier patch, the front would suddenly grip, sending the car in the direction of the correction (which is opposite to the direction the rear wants to send the car). This would be especially prevalent in the #95 accident, as the kerb would be quite slippery, whilst the track beyond it would be gripper.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Fiorentina 1

According to this week's AutoSprint, the 95 hit the tree on the other side of the barrier.

Closer photo(s) of the fan memorial at the crash place show one of the trees having its bark off. That three matches with the visible skidmarks on the road.

Won't post it because of the recent moderator announcement.

[Pilgrimage]

I've not been on here since the 24, but just thought I would mention that two other cars spun at almost exactly the spot seconds before the fatal and tragic crash (Ferrari and prototype).

[Gilles lives!]

Originally Posted by Pilgrimage

I've not been on here since the 24, but just thought I would mention that two other cars spun at almost exactly the spot seconds before the fatal and tragic crash (Ferrari and prototype).

Yes there is now YouTube footage to verify this, he may have even been distracted by the Ferrari recovering in front of him ? The other two cars span as you would expect them to after hitting the wet kerb/paint.