F1 oval race?

[KC]

I have no idea how old the BMRC info is. I only used them to illustrate the number of circuits in the UK.

[Neil C]

Welcome RaceFreak. Veering off topic here, but I have to second what you and MA say about Outlaw racing. Imagine small light cars powered by V8's with NO flywheels. This means instant torque, cars flying around dirt ovals with steering wheels at full opposite lock, using the throttle to 'steer' around the course.

It cant be described or appreciated on TV. You have to be there, which is the whole point of just about any sport, no? While working at the Indy track during qualifying in 1988, I had access to many drivers, Mears, Unsers, et al. The one autograph I walked away with? Steve Kinser

[EERO]

Just to throw my own two cents (sense)in, I fail to understand why as the world's borders diminish that we feel compelled to blurr the distinctions between unlike things. Why should F1 include Ovals? There is a long and glorious tradition of Road Racing in Europe that is nearly 100 years old. The First Grand Prix was run in 1906, if my memory is correct. The Post-War Formula One World Championship for Drivers is now more than 50 years old. This is a road racing tradition, I do not believe that it will neccessarily be improved by the addition of races run on Ovals. I believe that there is an advantage to keeping the various racing series unique and distinct, and that the homogenization of the World's various cultures is only encouraged by such wrong-headed thinking.

There is a place for BOTH CART with its mix of Oval, Road and Street Courses and F1 with its road and one Street Course.

(As an aside to our American Friends, the death of Baseball is Interleague play, just so you know where I'm coming from)

But for God's sake, if you were to add Ovals to F1, its dinstinction from CART would diminish and both series would suffer.

[Roy2]

There isn't a chance in a trillion that F1 cars will race on ovals, surely. The Indianapolis race is an aberration and not the real thing (in terms of being considered as authentic oval racing).

If the two CART oval races in Europe are a roaring success, Bernie wouldn't do it would he?

[Neil C]

Originally posted by EERO


(As an aside to our American Friends, the death of Baseball is Interleague play, just so you know where I'm coming from)

Hell, EERO, I have yet to accept the Designated Hitter as legitimate! You make a good case for purism in a sport that puts so much stock in tradition. Ultimately, I agree with you, although it is interesting to debate the possibility.

[EERO]

Yet again, Mr. Chapel, I defer to your superior judgement.

The Designated Hitter is an aberation I refuse to aknowledge as well.

[kev]

It's a little known fact that in New Zealand, Dirt Track Racing (we call it Speedway) attracts a larger live audience than first division rugby. However, this is a completely different kettle of fish. I don't think anyone is suggesting F1 on dirt ovals.

Was F1 raced at Brooklands? Or was it closed by then? All way before my time, but I happen to know a guy with a '29 Brooklands Riley.

[timo]

Well EERO i think that Monza was an oval track before...
So did you remember the move that MH done over TGF and Zonta at SPA this year...This kind of moves comes several times in the same race in ovals(super speedways) Have you seen the Fontana race this year, or US500, thats a race,
and thats what i'm talking about, i'm not talking about CART-F1 rivality but Racing, and if F1 is the top of the sport, why they can't race in the fastest track of the world (Fontana)California.
With all the technolgy in F1 that will be only a new challenge and could be very interesting for the drivers and teams. And also the fans.
PS : sorry for my English

[RussianFriend]

You may call it a purism but now we have some different peculiar racing series. If you start the interoscalation process where would you stop??? First, you have to change a car for oval circuit, then you change the rules and so forth... At lenght we'd get one unificated series.

[EERO]

Welcome, Timo. As a Yank, I get my fill of CART races which I thoroughly enjoy watching. F1 could learn a thing or two about putting on a show from CART, but a race run exclusively on an oval is not one I would like to see. F1 is a Road racing series and that's what I want to see.

Monza's Oval was used in conjunction with the road course, it was a fast and brutal track and it has deteriorated to such a degree that it would be unsafe to run.

I believe that the note was made above that current F1 cars could not sustain the flat-out pace of an Oval race.

By the way, your English is fine, we're glad to have you. I'm guessing from the name that you are a Finn? (Despite my own web name, it it my wife who is of Finnish descent.)

[Valve Bounce]

OK, time for me to stop posting cryptic messages here. Jack Brabham took a Cooper with a very much smaller engine than the Indy engines over to Indy, and did very well, I think he finished fourth (although I will stand corrected if someone has better data). Then both Jimmy Clark and Graham Hill came over later with more powerful engines, and these guys did better than the locals, and from memory, one of them (or both) won at Indy. It is true that the oval cars have to be different, as they circulate around one way with the cars constructed to turn at speed in the one direction. However, despite the above posts indicating F1 drivers are not up to oval racing, this is far from true. But to fit F1 into oval racing as well would require cars to be specially constructed for oval racing, and there is just not the time nor money for this with everyone being commited to developing their cars to be fastest under present F1 conditions.

[enzo]

Actually, VB, I don't think anyone here has claimed that F1 drivers would have a hard time on oval, only that they won't find it as easy and boring as some forum members would like to claim.

[Splatz]

I think we've nearly warn this issue out.

I'll always remember Juan Montoya having the back step out on his Target Lola mid-way through a turn on a Super Speedway this year. He gathered it up ok.

What impressed me so much is that at 220mph (around 350kmh) the telemetry showed he had his right foot buried the whole time he was still reighning it in! The balls it must take to powerslide at that speed and correct at that speed!

Lets not knock each others favourites series too much. Whatever their racing series, we are all awe-struck by their skill at one time or another.

[Valve Bounce]

Well Enzo, you did draw attention to certain quotes by some former F1 drivers that they were not that courageous to race on ovals, like scared Sh!tless and so on, but not a single reference to the ones that did extremely well. So I thought it would be appropriate to draw some attention to the brave ones who not only fought in the arena but who actually won!!

[enzo]

Amazing how some people can read things into posts that were never there!

The point of the quotes was to show the reactons of REAL F1 drivers to their first taste of an oval, as their opinions are the only true measure as to whether or not ovals are "boring" and "easy" as is the stated opinion of some ignorant F1 fans and forum posters.

No one of an intelligence, myself included, who are familiar with both ovals AND road courses, has ever claimed that ovals would be too tough for F1 drivers, or that they wouldn't do very well there.

Give me some credit here, and maybe not so much to yourself as your post puts you squarely in the midst of the "ignorant" lot.

[ma]

VB:

I suggest that you go back and re-read the posts again. The drivers quoted, for the most part, all did very well on the ovals, with the exceptions of Senna, who declined to even try, and Piquet, who damn near killed himself by being impatient.

That being the case, plus the fact that not a single post by anyone has even suggested that "F1 drivers aren't up to it", what the heck are you arguing for ?!!!

[F1factory]

F1factory -- Everything about F1

[Jared]

Actually, there was one Grand Prix held on an oval. Back in 1926, (I believe) there was a Grand Prix of Spain held on the San Sabastian(??) circuit, which was a giant concrete oval. According to the book I read this out of, the race was held only once, and the oval itself lasted only a few years, because it was poorly constructed and was far more bumpy than Monza ever was. (I will re-read the book and post correct information later if I am wrong.)

Then again, there was the 1959 GP of Germany, held at the Avus track, which, with two left hand corners and two long straights, could almost be considered an oval.

I loved the quotes, Enzo. Especially the ones from Mansell and Villeneuve Jr., two of the ballsiest drivers F1 has ever seen. Those should shut up those who have doubts about driving skill on an oval.

Personally, I would love to see F1 cars contest the Indy 500. It is one of, if not the world's greatest races (until TG made it an IRL joke). This would only be possible if MaxandBernie (all one word) opened up the size of the grid and the cars available to private teams. I remember reading in 1992 about the possibility of this happening.

[enzo]

Actually, Indy was part of the F1 circut for a time in the '50's if I remember correctly. Someone else may have the exact data stored away in their memories that they can post here.

There were also 2 oval "exhibition" races between F1 and Indy cars held back then also. The F1 cars were thoroughly trounced.

I'd love to see a modern F1 car on a 1 mile oval like Phoenix, just to see a car circulate at the speeds they would be capable of doing. Heaven forbid that one would crash, though, 'cause they'd have to retrieve the driver with a sponge.

[massifheed]

Beautifully put.

[Splatz]

Obviously, F1 cars are only bulit to last 2 hours and then they need a complete workover. Indy cars are built for slightly longer and tougher conditions which adds to the overall weight, but they are more rugged.

I think it would be great for the top 3 0r 4 F1 teams over 5 years to build a Champcar, and go Champcar racing. Mclaren and Ferrari would lob together a pretty mean 'grocery getter' if you ask me. Then they could race Gannassi and Newman-Haas and the rest of CART, in some epic race, Michigan, Indy, Fontana or Taledega. That would be wicked.

Then Gannassi, Newman-Haas and Penske should build a F1.

It would be like the motoracing Olympics.

[enzo]

If Ferarri or McLaren decided to go CART racing, and did it with the same commitment that they put into F1, we in CART wouldn't stand a chance! There's a huge difference between the two in available funding and familiarity with all that is available technologicly. There are some extremely bright and knowledgable people in CART, every bit as talanted as anyone in F1, but it takes many years and gobs of money to become conversant in all of the latest and greatest. The best funded CART teams are in the $20 million a season area, which would just about cover McLaren's travel budget for 2 months!

BUT, it would be a blast to watch all the current F1 drivers duke it out in top notch CART cars on a track like Phoenix - Murray would have a coronary, and Mosley would go into hiding after they returned to their next boring road course venue!

But the best sight would be to put Ecclestone into Ganassi's 2-seater with either Montoya or Mario driving - I doubt you'd ever hear from him again !

Ain't gonna happen, but we can dream......

[Splatz]

If it helps make it happen, Ill pay the dry cleaning of the Ecclestone suit after his ride, it'll need it!