LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Rcz]

You forgot the font corner bottom of the car.

[Deleted]

Righto

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

So stupid question. It says that the following items are 'stock' for their chosen chassis and IMSA DP... I mean P2 bodywork builders cannot touch them:

Rear wing + mounts
Engine cover fin
Splitter
Floor
Diffuser

Are they also spec for the four approved chassis makers? As in Oreca has to have identical floor to Onroak?

I guess we don't know about the level of shared parts between the chosen 4 yet but it was expected that they share some common parts.

[Deleted]

Hmm yeah I think the only thing we know for sure isn't total spec worldwide are the tires*, after ACO changed their minds. Unless they backtrack again if some manufacturer hands big enough cash bag in the table - which is what has happened with the other spec deals here obviously...

* Outside Conti-Hoosier zone that is

---
I would love to have a nerdy graph to show how much more spec component heavy 2011 LMP2 was to 2010 spec, and how much 2017 is to both of those 'generations'

[TF110]

I assume they can use the 'spec' parts from any of the 4 chassis constructors while that same constructor is responsible for the manufacturer bodywork. Again, though, it seems pointless because any gain will be pegged back. Its sad imo. No development on the aero side is rewarded, its just stiffled and we just get more spec more bop.

[carbsmith]

Pretty much anything that even meaningfully affects the shape of the car is restricted anyways. You might be able to tell an ORECA-Mazda from an ORECA-Chevrolet but you sure won't confuse them with a Riley-Chevrolet.

Pretty much Gen 1 DP with a bit more freedom in how you style it to keep it from being so ugly.

[Rcz]

Well people keep saying more horsepower less aero.

I'm fine with the aeros rules because I'm tired of seeing mechanics working on aero and wind tunnels all the time. Not to mention if a piece of aero flew off your race day is done.


However i do hope the mechanical elements of the car so get more free up. I find that more intresting, but that most likely not going to happen. Plus I still hate the 4 chassis limit idiotic.

[TF110]

Audi's engine cover blew off and it was fine. Needed to pit but it wasnt terminal. Its not like F1 where one bit of contact takes your car apart.

[TzeiTzei]

There is so much restrictions and performance balancing that it makes my head hurt. These are supposed to be prototypes, right? The car should make a difference. Technology should matter. Aero and engine performance should matter. I have a feeling that the more you restrict these cars the less intrested people will be to watch them. Engine power will be about the same that the DPs have now. I'm not convinced that these cars will be any more spectacular or intresting than what the DPs are currently. And that is not the road to success.

[Rcz]

Sportscars always rises and falls. Back then the ALMS was the premier Sportcars series. But then the factories left for the WEC and the bad economic situation.

However, it's seem to come back eventually...

When the Group C and GTP died out the SRP or first generation LMP cars took over and eventually became the most technically advanced race cars today.

Perhaps you can say the these new IMSA P2 are really just DP generation 4.0. But they are better then the pervious generations. So maybe the 5th generation will even better and so on. At least I hope this is a door to better cars in the future. Of course money and popularity has to come back to the sport, which I think it can with the right marketing.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

There is so much restrictions and performance balancing that it makes my head hurt. These are supposed to be prototypes, right? The car should make a difference. Technology should matter. Aero and engine performance should matter. I have a feeling that the more you restrict these cars the less intrested people will be to watch them. Engine power will be about the same that the DPs have now. I'm not convinced that these cars will be any more spectacular or intresting than what the DPs are currently. And that is not the road to success.

Yes. There is only one prototype class left out there by 2017, and that is LMP1. The rest consisting of spec & bop LMDP2, ACO-LMP2-0.9, Babyborn-LMP3, possible leftover frankenstein DPs and PCs, CNs, Lites and other spec categories don't earn to have that title. The only criteria they do fulfill is to not have road car counterparts, but that doesn't really even have positive vibe in it by itself

As exception AsLMS allows current LMP2s under grandfathering rules until 2019 IIRC, thou. But do we think it's still alive by then? How is it alive now?

[Speed-King]

CN is apart from the engine actually rather nonspec. Sure, it's a one shot homologation after which your car is locked into that configuration for the next three years, but it's still very much possible to build a better mouse trap, as evidenced by the continued domination of Norma in VdeV. Plenty of constructors have tried to take them on, but none ever really succeeded.

[Deleted]

Right. For the record, I do think that outside the LMP classes, CN is the most interesting now. Or would be if
A) they didn't look like cheap toy cars
B) weren't treated as total crap by the ACO and even some other organizers when the cars are put against other machinery

[TF110]

I think the new imsa prototypes will be a second or so faster, maybe 2. But the tire restriction will be a gamble of course. Too bad, they should forget the LM connection and beef up their own show.

[Deleted]

Yes. Imagine if IMSA GT had killed off glorious GTP cars and replaced them with weird mockup versions of the C2 machinery from WSC, in order to close to have more international linkup and cheaper budgets. I reckon by having their own proud product without trying to make unnecessary nods to France, they faired much better. As history shows.

Of course, doing your own thing doesn't always work. Remember when Grand-Am banned internationally succesful SR, GTS and GT/N-GT in favor of their ugly 5 dollar tube frame GTs and DPs... what a success that was

ALMS's direct LM link worked because it was THE ACO championship in it's hayday.

[TF110]

They could keep the LM link in GTE. Prototype could be their own thing. Bentleys interest and such could actually boost the class's profile.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Right. For the record, I do think that outside the LMP classes, CN is the most interesting now. Or would be if
A) they didn't look like cheap toy cars
B) weren't treated as total crap by the ACO and even some other organizers when the cars are put against other machinery

Out of curiosity how much is a CN car?

[yukoncornelius]

Originally Posted by rich07

Out of curiosity how much is a CN car?

A Wolf will run you in the 100K Euro range, while Norma's, Ligier's, ATS', are in the 50-60K range.

http://www.racingpal.com/race-cars-f...rototype-cars/

The prices above are pretty average from my research

[pablocomics]

Originally Posted by rich07

Out of curiosity how much is a CN car?

All of them are a bit up to 100K

Norma M20FC 110000 +VAT

Tatuus PY02 costs about 115000 Euros +VAT

Ligier JS EVO2 about 115000 euros+vat You could see some detailed prices of pieces and components here http://www.ligierusa.com/wp-content/...B-14-04-14.pdf

[Starfish Primer]

The CN performance and costs make Ginetta P3 look even worse.

[pablocomics]

IMO both of them has their own place on the market. The CN cars are fast and cheap, but those cars has the same problem of F3. They are fast on turns and you can brake really late, but the engines are barely up to 250HP and that's not very exciting.

The LMP3 covers that place of the market. Sensations close to a GTE but by just a 1/4 of a price of GTE.
As soon as other new cars arrive to scene, probably the lmp3 will be about 3-5 seconds faster in no time because the constructors will start a strong fight for the market (like CN class or LMP2). Probably in 2016 the fastest LMP3 will be really close to the slowest LMP2

[Starfish Primer]

IMSA also has the Lites category, why not give it a chance?

[Jam3s]

I just hope dallara doesn't get a spot, their resources and general attitude towards racing will quickly turn P2 into a "spec" (I mean it already will be, but at least we will have different looking cars) series.

I believe Gibson might switch their attention to LMP1.5 as well.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes. Imagine if IMSA GT had killed off glorious GTP cars and replaced them with weird mockup versions of the C2 machinery from WSC, in order to close to have more international linkup and cheaper budgets. I reckon by having their own proud product without trying to make unnecessary nods to France, they faired much better. As history shows.

That is pretty much what happened in 1993/1994, though, when the GTPs had priced themselves out of existence (sounds familiar, eh?)... Most of the first gen WSC-cars were actually chopped up Lights or C2-cars.

Of course, doing your own thing doesn't always work. Remember when Grand-Am banned internationally succesful SR, GTS and GT/N-GT in favor of their ugly 5 dollar tube frame GTs and DPs... what a success that was

SR really didn't work in Grand Am, though. Their SR-class car count for the regular season races was completely in the toilet by 2002. Then grids virtually exploded during the first three or four years of the DP formula. Sure, there were some subsidies here and there and cheap bank loans, but a lot of the growth was also genuine. I don't think Jim France would have gone out of his way to subsidize any of the pro/am teams that actually made up the bulk of the DP-field back then. There really is no return on that investment whatsoever. Paying key players like Gainsco to stay in the series is something that actually makes sense, but what would be the point of buying an entry from someone like Michael Finley or Jim Derhaag?

[Rcz]

Aside from the Ferraris, I don't really care about the WSC cars of the nineties, I mean they look like glorified go karts, though they did get better. I like the pseudo GT1 protoypes much more. Though I was too young to remember those day those cars raced. So no offense to anyone if you like those WSC cars.