Budgets in sportscars

[deggis]

Just curious to hear if anyone have any information, or even guesses.

"It is said that Audi's factory-backed R10 program – which extends to the 24 Hours of Le Mans – has an annual budget of $15 million. Lewis' San Diego-based Autocon Motorsports has a budget of $1.2 million."

And source for that is here

Depends what all that 15 million includes. How much Audi has put into engine development in addition to that? Maybe I have unrealistic expectations but still sounds kinda small amount of banknotes - compared to F1, from Super Aguri's $57 m to top team's $400+ millions (in 2006 according to this).

Also I'm interested what kind of budgets teams had in the glory days of Group C. Has it become just a legend that it was getting seriously more expensive than F1 back then?

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[ThePenguin]

I really don't see any way for Autocon to really have a budget of just 1.5 million, and Audi definitely has to have a budget larger than 15 million now.

[TRuss]

If Audi's annual budget is truly that low, or even close to it. Then it's no wonder why they are staying out of F1. Which like everyone else around here I am glad about.

[AU N EGL]

A good GT2 team and average P2 team ~$2.5-$3 million is a fair estimate, Not including car purchase

[alwayswatching]

Audi only spending $15 mil?

And I of course believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. No way Jose.

I'd think for the ALMS that may well be correct, but for this + Europe + Le Mans + having the chassis out sourced + the engine program?..........................wake up and smell the coffee.

It would be interesting to know what the actual figure is tho.

[canam]

I seem to remember that, upon its announcement, the Pug progamme had a Euro 100m budget over three years which amounts to circa US$155-160m ie. $50m per year. I would be surprised if Audi's budget was not larger this year given that they are in both the LMS and the ALMS.

I suppose if you exclude all the development and only look at the running and testing costs for the team in the ALMS, the $15m may not be too far away for one car.

[zac510]

That could be a seperate figure to the design and development of the car, which was done 2 years ago.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by deggis

Also I'm interested what kind of budgets teams had in the glory days of Group C. Has it become just a legend that it was getting seriously more expensive than F1 back then?

Not sure about budgets , but Walter Brun was known to turn up at race tracks with sacks of change from his slot machine business .....

But drivers saleries were also a lot smaller then ..... iirc Derek Bell drove for some of the privateers for 5 to 6 grand a race .

[isynge]

Back in 2003 Pescarolo's budget was €3 million, €2 million of which came from Peugeot. Given that this was quite a significant campaign (FIA Sportscars, Le Mans, and the first Le Mans 1000 km) and that the Euro was worth quite a lot less then than it is now, Autocon running their Creation for $1.2 million might not be that far off the mark.

[alwayswatching]

From what I've managed to glean around various other sites & Teams, a single car P1/2 running budget..............privateer, excluding the set up costs or car & engine cost............looks like being around $3 > 4 mil................doing it properly, halve that it they weren't serious I'd imagine.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by alwayswatching

Audi only spending $15 mil?

And I of course believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. No way Jose.

I was just quoting what it said on that webpage.

Also that news is from April 2007, so obviously it doesn't count LMS anyway.

Originally Posted by canam

I seem to remember that, upon its announcement, the Pug progamme had a Euro 100m budget over three years which amounts to circa US$155-160m ie. $50m per year. I would be surprised if Audi's budget was not larger this year given that they are in both the LMS and the ALMS.

That sounds more like it.

I suppose if you exclude all the development and only look at the running and testing costs for the team in the ALMS, the $15m may not be too far away for one car.

Might be that, especially when that piece of news is comparing it to Autocon's budget and the whole subject is about Autocon.

[marcush.]

Porsche RS spyder 1.500.000$ per unit,gearbox203.000$,engine322.000$,four wheels 8000$,Brake disc 4000$ per unit,spare body kit,308.000$,....not counting the workforce ,acommodation,travelling,tools to run the car,let alone all the small bits you just have to have to be considered serious....
I´m sure there are cheaper deals than Porsche ,but seriously,just look at the headcount at Audi and you know that 15.000000$ may just account for the retainers of the people involved.Just look at the detailing of those cars,this
is 100% not all done inhouse at Audi apart from the design....and even if it was it just costs a fortune to build cars like those.I guess Audi just counts differently.....

[isynge]

One of the interesting things to think about is whether you regard the up front chassis purchase as a sunk piece of capital expenditure or whether you amortise it over the lifetime of the programme. With a works team like Audi you'd suspect it's the latter, but with a team like Autocon they might well see the investment in the rolling chassis differently. With the Pescarolo example I cited earlier, the €3 million presumably didn't include the cost of buying the C60s, because they were already there. So, maybe apples and oranges here.

Put another way, if you've got a chassis in your garage already, the pertinent question is probably how much it will cost you to bring it to the track and race it? Here I'd argue the cost may well be down in the regions we're talking about.

[cptkablamo]

Last I got an answer they (ie management) were aiming for about AU$100 000 - AU$200 000 a year to race a 7 round series (6 sprint rounds, 1 enduro) for GT3 cars in Australia.

So just to RUN a car wouldn't be overly expensive, provided you didn't break it too often

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by isynge

One of the interesting things to think about is whether you regard the up front chassis purchase as a sunk piece of capital expenditure or whether you amortise it over the lifetime of the programme.

Race cars are amortised over three years. That is about the life of one car with the original team, then sold to another team or put in a museum.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Race cars are amortised over three years. That is about the life of one car with the original team, then sold to another team or put in a museum.

Genuinely interesting - although shouldn't the team that subsequently buys the car restart the amortisation process afresh - or is that me being hopelessly European in my view of accounting?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by isynge

Genuinely interesting - although shouldn't the team that subsequently buys the car restart the amortisation process afresh - or is that me being hopelessly European in my view of accounting?

The Second team would amortize their new car on their budget, not since the cars inspetion.

By the third year, how much of the original race car is remaining? Not much.

[Mal]

It all depends what is put into the 'budget' - those figures may be just operational costs and may not include build costs and development costs. Indeed until the RS spyder and Pug came along Audi probably did little deveopment to there cars after the initial build - they had no need to as they were winning easily anyway. This is probably why this year we have seen that the Audi is much more competitive at places like St Petes and Long Beach as they have finally done some development work to make the car more competitive on tighter circuits.

[AU N EGL]

My guess is those are annual operational budgets, and no to minimal development.
However, each time the car goes onto a track there are data engineers recording everything too look how to set up for that circuit in the future. So that is still development. Race Car development is on going or you start loosing.

[AU N EGL]

And if you have to repair after a big crash:

"Feinberg was kind enough to document the running totals of their crash damage for us—it gives a great insight into the financial and human costs of such a crash:

6 people 12 hrs per day for 7 days that is 504 man hours average 40.00 per hr: $20,160.00
Entire light weight body minus the roof: $15,795.00
Paint and graphics: $3,000
1 set of BBS wheels: $4850.00
Brake components destroyed: $8500.00
Both rear axles: $1450.00
Suspension components destroyed: $6250.00
Chassis Repair: $7150.00
U-Haul for chassis to Dodge repair facility: $1700
1 set of tires: $2300.00
Both headlight assembly: $2250.00
Radiator: $850.00
Exhaust 1 side: $1800.00
Rear toe links: $441.00
2 shocks: $7100.00
Steering rack: $852.00
Front sway bar: $1150.00

Total: $85,598

Although Feinberg’s Primetime Racing operation is just finding its feet in the American Le Mans Series, thoughts of taking a race off to have an easier go of repairing their Dodge Viper was never an option. “Once we got back from St. Pete, everybody knew the direction we had to go. There was never any doubt we’d be here ten days later. I hate the word ‘no’…I won’t take ‘no’ for an answer.”




http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ng-beach-blog/

[Mal]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

. Race Car development is on going or you start loosing.

Exactly whilst I accept that there is alway some deveolpment work done through race data and experience I think Audi sat on there laurels a bit and were caught out by the pace on the RS Spyder last year. My guess is they have now done some serious work to improve competitiveness on street circuits and tight circuits - which is why they have been in a position to win the last two races

[sssssssss]

it'd be interesting to know if audi or peugeot have greater budget for the lms and le mans. at the moment, the cars run like peugeot is spending more money on the le mans series than audi :P

[deggis]

Some P2 private manufacturer guy just said on Radio Le Mans that running Porsche RS Spyder costs 6 million (pounds?).

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by deggis

Some P2 private manufacturer guy just said on Radio Le Mans that running Porsche RS Spyder costs 6 million (pounds?).

Dyson is spending much less than that to run two.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by deggis

Some P2 private manufacturer guy just said on Radio Le Mans that running Porsche RS Spyder costs 6 million (pounds?).

That is what was mentioned for the sum spent so far By VM Motorsports on their Spyder program. But in the same breath it was also said that this was by far way more than the other teams were spending. I would assume that this is approx. the same level that the Penske cars are run/maintained at. So as close to a factory effort as a privateer can get!


L.P.