Panoz LMP-01, customer car of now?

[Chevyguy]

Take a hypothetical team, with a reasonbale budget no stump as to what to do with rules changing all around them.

On another thread, gttouring stated that he beleives the Roadster needs some "evolution". I disagree, and so does Don Panoz, he said so. JML is getting these victories by just going out and racing. No weird tricks, no BS. I'm going to try break down why this is a good formula, and should be adopted by our hypothetical team.

First, getting one. There has got to be some available. At Le Mans 2000, there were at least five on the grid, correct? Then it cannot be denied that there are that many in existance. I'm pretty sure Nielson's was the one driven by Enge in the '01 ELMS, that might have been the same one used by Jeanette at last year's Sebring. Two were entered by a Japanese team, and surely the JML cars are last year's factory cars. So that means there are most definately Roadsters sitting around collecting dust, and can probably be snagged cheaper than a DP.

Why would our hypothetical team want one? To letters, FR. Front engine, rear drive. Put that with a Ford V8, and you've got the same ol' hot rod that our hypothetical team's mechanics have been twisting on for years. Maybe not quite the same, but you catch my drift. The lack of sophisticated parts, like on the MG-Lola, makes for easier setup, and is less likely to light up like a match in the oven, by that, I mean the MG. Kinda like a really fast Pinto, no? While hard to drive, the Panoz has managed good results in this year's endurance races. This is the only other vehicle to win during the Audi reign that really has yet to end in the ALMS.

If I was the boss of our hypothetical team, I would want the Panoz as my car until LMPs become history in a couple of years, and see if I could catch a podium or two. On the other hand, there's always those DPs that everyone seems to like.

[Chevyguy]

Sorry. Victories??????!!!!! Where the heck is my head?

[Lee Janotta]

Nope. I think with the same engine, for the same budget, the Riley & Scott MkIIIc beats the LMP-01, hands down. Plus, it's still being actively developed!

[Fab]

I'm for those second hand customers cars : usualy, the private teams give a second life to cars that didn't always succeeded in their goals before... this LMP O1 is the exemple : it did their best result at LM this year...

[JAG]

If I was setting up a new team I'd buy 2 Lola LMGTPs (guaranteed speed and lessons learned from the MG) fitted with the 5l Judd which finally seems reliable.

Panoz would seem a waste of money to me considering there short lifespan in which they can race in the future. Thats unless you could hire the cars from Panoz rather than buying them, while you asess the new cars.

[veeten]

That's true. Remember, Den Bla Avis, Team Goh(TV Asahi), and others had run the LMP01 from '00-'01, just before Panoz bought them back to use them for the factory team, with the upgrades & modifications. Don himself said, during an interview at LeMans, that this was one of the mistakes they made in an all-consuming chase against Audi for ALMS championships. And now, with VAG selling a number of the cars to privateers, combined with the failure of the LMP-07, Panoz has shifted their directions presently from the LMPs to GTs.

The problem here is that the LMP01s only have development up to last season, and that there will be no further work done on this chassis. So if you happen to build a team around it, you'll have only until '04 to make it race-able, muchaless win-able.

[The Boot]

The Panoz that ran in the B-17 colors at Sebring 2002 is now running vintage races in the HSR series. I believe it is chassis #1.

[gttouring]

Chevy Guy- Yes i still believe the Panoz need an evo-
Point the LMP-07 was a reall neat design-working with a front engine I like. the car did have reliability and some speed issues, but something can be done to shoehorn the old Ford V8 in it the proper motor the LMP01 started with. now I like the car and am well aware of the results- 5th this year at LeMans and best to date in an older privateer chassis. However with LMP going south soon and protos coming to the fore, I feel it could use a freshening. For example if full enclosed cockpit cars are going to be the Mode, well how about, seeing as the Panoz GTR had aero issues with the wing and cockpit, why not fit the LMP-01 with a fighterjet style single cockpit and develop the aero from there. ths can allow better flow as the size of the roof isn't there. and if they deem the need for a theoretical second seat space well that can be accomodated with another bubble or a shallower one. Maybe this will allow the Panoz to work with the rules and become a LMGTP and really outshine the rest with that big Yates V8 in there.
Chevy guy do you see what I am getting at? as the thread starter it is you I would like to see my point most clearly.

[Lee Janotta]

gttouring: There isn't enough physical space in the front of the LMP-07 to shoehorn the pushrod Ford in. It's stuck with that little Zytek piece of junk.

[gttouring]

well that is the real shame, beacuse what was the problem with it-frailty of suspension or a Kitten motor?

[Speck]

I wonder, why don't somebody stick a rotary engine into the LMP-07?

[veeten]

mainly because Thorby didn't have the chance to finish the development on the -07. A shame really, ae it could've been a great design, but I believe that we may see all of that in the Lister LMP.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, I hate to beat up on the guys at Zytek, but that engine was horribly ill-conceived. Too small to be a torque engine, too low-revving to be competitive with the Judd. People look for loopholes in the rules with displacements and intake restrictor sizes, or with fuel efficiency over the course of a race... But the fact is you don't win unless you've got the biggest engine the rules allow. The 4.0L Judd is the only exception to this rule in recent memory, and being F1-derived, it was in a class of it's own in terms of design efficiency.

Unless you start with an engine that makes 800 horsepower in an F1 car at only 3 liters, how are you ever going to get power comparable to a turbocharged Audi engine with only 400cc more displacement?

De-stroke the Zytek by the aforementioned 400cc, slap on a turbo, then maybe we'll talk.

I'm sure both Thorby and the guys at Zytek _can_ do a great job, but the whole concept of that car/engine package was horribly, horribly flawed.

[Speck]

I think the Zytek engine would be OK if given some time, money and TLC. But turbocharging it would be something, though.

[Tim Northcutt]

Sorry to jump into this after two days of discussion, but I agree with all of LeeJanotta's points above....

If I were to spend money as a privateer, the R&S MkIIIC would be a much better buy than the Panoz because it is still being dactively developed....

American Spirit Racing (AmeriSuites) bought the old Dyson chassis, and R&S hooked them up with the new aero developments from last year...They'll be running the old Lincoln engine this weekend, but their first (and only outing thus far) at Sebring was a decent first-time showing...

Now, if a privateer wants to run a Panoz and work on adapting it to the 2004 specs in the undertray areas, etc., and pay an aero engineer to do so, go for it...but it would seem to be cost-prohibitive to do so, and whenever the "Grandfather Clause" expires, so will that car's life as an LMP competitor...

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
If I were to spend money as a privateer, the R&S MkIIIC would be a much better buy than the Panoz because it is still being dactively developed....

And what about a Dome/Judd for privateers ? Didn't work so bad last days... not as good as the Panoz, I have to admit...

The lethal weapon remains the Audi ; I was dreaming of a private Bentley for next year... a red Bentley...

[Tim Northcutt]

If you could access a Dome chassis for cheap, and the Dome factory would sell the upgrade kit, then it, too would be a good privateer/customer car as well...

but it must be noted that others have mentioned that Dome is planning to go into the LMP2 (750 kg.) chassis development for 2004, because they feel that there will be plenty of customers in that class...

This would seem to leave further development of the Dome LMP 900 out in the cold....unless they do both...

[gttouring]

as it stands the Panoz and Audi are the only real threats, is it difficult to make customer chassis only in this series? and let customer powerplants as well? or would this be a total mess (i rather enjoy factory involvment)

[Fab]

Originally posted by gttouring
as it stands the Panoz and Audi are the only real threats

Not quite : let's not forget Courage (I know, it's french ) and DBA (or whatever is the name of the chassis)...

The real problem is the engine : powerful and reliable ? I just know Audi

[Tim Northcutt]

I'd agree with Fab and would add the Dome and R&S chassis as well...

I also feel that the Panoz subsidiary is on the right track with the Elan engine, and that the Yates has a lot of potential...the Yates has only been tuned for endurance racing since January or so...it was very fast at Le Mans...

Give both the time to continue to develop, and add the Judd 5.0 L into that mix, and you would have three customer-available engines, at a minimum, to choose from....

There was an engine thread a couple of months ago that went into greater detail on this...I won't repeat it and thus change the focus of this thread...lots of power options could be developed that could compete at this level...

[JAG]

Dome are making an LMP2 but have said they will carry on with a new LMP1 if there is demand. If RFH and Kondo, as expected, carry on with Dome I would expect a new Dome to be built.

I would also expect the new Lola LMP1 to be the class of the field when it is launched, particulalry for customer cars. With the MG, Lola used the latest technology and designs and I belive this will be incorporated into there new car to make it very competitive. The new Courage should also be good as Courage have made a better car each design they have produced.

[FIRE]

Originally posted by JAG

I would also expect the new Lola LMP1 to be the class of the field when it is launched, particulalry for customer cars. With the MG, Lola used the latest technology and designs and I belive this will be incorporated into there new car to make it very competitive.

So Lola designs a new LMP car? That's new to me.

[Tim Northcutt]

There have been lots of mentions about the Lola chassis....

Let's hope they have learned A LOT from the LMP 675... and have corrected the many shortcomings it has faced, because mechanically, the 675 chassis has been plagued by mechanical and electrical gremlins over the past three years...

[JAG]

Lola have/were designing a 2004 spec. LMP for some time, with the aim to be the first out there for testing. Recently however they've done a deal with a manufactuer to build a carbon GTS car for them. Part of the deal is to build an LMGTP (it is thought) with styling cues from the GTS. Due to the LMGTP its unlikely Lolas own LMP will be built, as they would probably sell the new LMGTP themselves, as they did with the MG.

[Tim Northcutt]

A side note on Customeer Cars:

with the LMP2 class coming into the picture and "production-based" engines as part of the mix, why not take a flyer on the SnoBeck that was unveiled at Le Mans in 2001 or 2002 (can't remember which year)(revised to 2004 rules) with a solid, proven engine packed in it???

They would jump at the chance to get hooke dup with a team to develop it...

Yur thoughts???