FIA/ACO to create universal GT class

[canaglia]

most of gt3 cars use >600hp road engines, but letting engines be more powerful means privaters woud need to rebuild it more often making gt3 more expensive and potentially less affordable for teams and am drivers. On topspeed.com I've found this about 2019 R8 lms:

"While this may be the case, the almost unchanged engine will still need servicing every 6,213 racing miles and a full rebuild after 12,426 racing miles."

potentially a single engine could be used for both nurburgring 24H and spa 24H with still many miles yet to go before mandatory rebuild.
The reasonable managment costs is basically the secret of GT3 formula success.

Anyway if GT convergence will happen for real in future, I would be in favour to see same specs but different bop for pro classes and pro-am classes, with the first made somehow more powerful and lighter if possible. It wouldn't be something really new actually, years ago in gt-open GT3 were allowed to run in SGT class along GTE and modified GT1 and had a different bop than gt3 cars running in GTS.

[Mike E]

The manufacturers don't want to spend more money turning GT3s into super-GT3s. They could just build a GTE to start with. They would be quite happy to be able to sell the same cars into WEC, ELMS, IMSA etc with development already paid for.

[broadrun96]

If teams wanted to be in the GTE/GT3+ ranks they would have been already, and embraced the DTM mention of such things. They aren't/weren't so creating a new market isn't going to magically create new cars.

[Bcarr6]

I dont see any issue with current speed GT3 cars fitting into WEC/IMSA.

Realistically, hypercar are slower, meaning P2's npow have to be slower, thus pushing them into that zone where its a little harder for them to safely lap GTE.

So, where would it be a bad thing to replace GTE with GT3, which is slightly slower than GTE. Should if anything help the new heirarchy better.

The other real question is will GT Pro be necessary in the WEC going forward with a potentially substantially expanded Hypercar / LMDH, full of factory entrants.

Who would be entering GT Pro in WEC anyway? Those more serious pro GT3 teams will likely still prefer GTWC / DTM where they are the top tier, why spend all that money on a privateer Pro WEC GT entry just to be the second lowest class of 4

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The manufacturers don't want to spend more money turning GT3s into super-GT3s. They could just build a GTE to start with. They would be quite happy to be able to sell the same cars into WEC, ELMS, IMSA etc with development already paid for.

no need to create anything...
R8 in gt-pro 1290kg - 2x40mm
R8 in gt-am 1320kg - 2x38mm

same cars, different bop to let gt-pro being a bit faster by default

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

I dont see any issue with current speed GT3 cars fitting into WEC/IMSA.

Realistically, hypercar are slower, meaning P2's npow have to be slower, thus pushing them into that zone where its a little harder for them to safely lap GTE.

So, where would it be a bad thing to replace GTE with GT3, which is slightly slower than GTE. Should if anything help the new heirarchy better.

The other real question is will GT Pro be necessary in the WEC going forward with a potentially substantially expanded Hypercar / LMDH, full of factory entrants.

Who would be entering GT Pro in WEC anyway? Those more serious pro GT3 teams will likely still prefer GTWC / DTM where they are the top tier, why spend all that money on a privateer Pro WEC GT entry just to be the second lowest class of 4

How dare you provide a reasoned rational statement here? This is the internet and we will not take kindly to that kind of nonsense

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

I dont see any issue with current speed GT3 cars fitting into WEC/IMSA.

Realistically, hypercar are slower, meaning P2's npow have to be slower, thus pushing them into that zone where its a little harder for them to safely lap GTE.

So, where would it be a bad thing to replace GTE with GT3, which is slightly slower than GTE. Should if anything help the new heirarchy better.

The other real question is will GT Pro be necessary in the WEC going forward with a potentially substantially expanded Hypercar / LMDH, full of factory entrants.

Who would be entering GT Pro in WEC anyway? Those more serious pro GT3 teams will likely still prefer GTWC / DTM where they are the top tier, why spend all that money on a privateer Pro WEC GT entry just to be the second lowest class of 4

Exactly, that is why I think GTE Pro will be gone after 2022 and WILL NOT be replaced. The only GT at the WEC/ACO level will be "Am" based. All pro GT will be left for IMSA GTD Pro, GT World Challenge, N24/NLS, and DTM. That is plenty of content still. WEC does not really need GT that much going forward. I think between LMH, LMD, and LMP2 alone they can get a 48 car grid at Le Mans. They are a prototype first series now from this point on. Which is fine, I'll just keep watching GTWC, NLS, DTM, GT Open, ADAC, and yes IMSA too because they still respect the importance of GT racing even with LMDH coming in.

[Adam43]

Can they get a quality 62 car grid without GT?

They importance of GT, or any of the other classes, there is to get the grid numbers. Of course GT also helps entice a little more manufacturer hospitality and promotion.

Anyway, all good, as it brings something more to the racing.

[Truckosaurus]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

...
Who would be entering GT Pro in WEC anyway? Those more serious pro GT3 teams will likely still prefer GTWC / DTM where they are the top tier, why spend all that money on a privateer Pro WEC GT entry just to be the second lowest class of 4

For the prestige of being 'World Champion', and also the chance to win Le Mans which is still, by a decent margin, the pinnacle of our branch of the sport.

It is ELMS that seems to be the least appealing championship for GTs, and could probably do with having a GT3 class already.

[Speed-King]

GT-Eins.de had a very interesting interview with Hans Reiter yesterday.

Here is a translation of some of Hans' statements regarding the future of GT racing:

"Stephane Ratel is not very optimistic concerning the future prospects of GT3. That's why he's pushing for GT2 wherever he can. The GT3 [class] has become more and more professionalized and as a result of its success the class has moved further and further away from its roots as a customer sports class. Even in many SRO-series you only have a shot at victory if your driver squad consists entirely of factory drivers. With the new GT3 regulations due in 2022 and the end of the GTE class, this will only get worse, as this will lead to an escalation of costs that makes it appear like the end of the [GT3]class is within view. The process of formulating the new ruleset is entirely in the hands of the FIA. The SRO is no longer involved. Under the new ruleset, aspects like e.g. the wheelbase of the cars will be much less regulated, which will lead to expensive modifications. You won't be able to buy new cars for much less than €600.000 - and I am not even talking about running costs here. As these cars will replace the GTEs in the FIA WEC and at Le Mans, the factories will spare no expenses to tailor their cars for exactly that [race], no matter the cost. This will lead to a situation in which barely any privateers will be able to buy GT3s as budgets [for manufacturer subsidies] will get more and more focused on Le Mans and the other big races. The GT3 class is being driven into a wall - and it's coming closer and closer!

What's making matters even worse is that the LMDh-class will be a rival for GT3 when it comes to allocating factory budgets. Never again in the future will it be this cheap to race for overall victories at Le Mans. This means that the factory subsidies currently paid out to GT3 teams will be shifted to Le Mans and the ACO-series. It remains to be seen if national GT3 series such as ADAC GT-Masters will be able to prevail in the long run. Privateers will be looking for a more affordable and almost as fast platform - and if Ratel is right, that will be GT2.

[canaglia]

a bit hypocritical... I've never seen Ratel concerned or upset when spa 24H grid is full of audi, porsche, bmw, amg and recently bentley work or however work supported teams...

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by canaglia

a bit hypocritical... I've never seen Ratel concerned or upset when spa 24H grid is full of audi, porsche, bmw, amg and recently bentley work or however work supported teams...

You make a good point, but, other than the declared BMW price significantly under the figure quoted above, the new M4 certainly illustrates the concerns. Speaking of wheelbase, M4 GT3 is looooonger than M8 GTE!
What's the point in replacing the failing GTE with something headed in the exact same direction?
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...ace-debut.html

Originally Posted by Adam43

Can they get a quality 62 car grid without GT?

They importance of GT, or any of the other classes, there is to get the grid numbers. Of course GT also helps entice a little more manufacturer hospitality and promotion.

Believe it or not, a lot of fans actually enjoy seeing relatable cars in the race. And a lot of manufacturers too would like to race something that looks like their road cars. Despite the initial intentions Hypercar failed in both accounts. Except maybe for Donkervoort, whose cars sort of do look like an egg with a beak and 4 wheels.

For one, I'm not looking forward to seeing half the grid filled with almost identically-looking, identically-sounding spec prototypes, not to mention the fact they're currently at peak ugly. No matter how close the racing is. F2 is close racing and on average presents better driver talent than P2. Yet I haven't watched a single race, because it's all about cars for me. And I think, of all categories, specifically sports car fans have the biggest demand for variety.

[tux]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

GT-Eins.de had a very interesting interview with Hans Reiter yesterday.

Here is a translation of some of Hans' statements regarding the future of GT racing:

Of course Reiter wants to big up the GT2 class, hes one of the only people selling a bespoke car for it.

Pretty depressing tbh, GT3 has been amazing, GT2 while early in its inception doesn't appeal to me, the cars dont look as good, they dont sound as good (compared to the GT3 versions of the same models)

Still, shouldn't complain, we had a good run. Wont be all that long before every GT car will be turbo/hybrid or electric.

Just thought id add these 2 articles from DSC about the costs of GT racing. I knew it was expensive but it still takes you back when you see it written down.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...ng-part-1.html

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...ng-part-2.html

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Can they get a quality 62 car grid without GT?

They importance of GT, or any of the other classes, there is to get the grid numbers. Of course GT also helps entice a little more manufacturer hospitality and promotion.

Anyway, all good, as it brings something more to the racing.

Marshall Pruett and Graham Goodwin discussed this once and concluded that no they can't get to 62, but remember that 48 was the Le Mans grid size for many years. But with 62 garages I bet they want to use them, so I feel that a GT-Am class of some sort is here to stay. In what for is the question. Perhaps it will be GT3 by 2024 maybe? I think they should throw a twist that too, in that only manufacturers that entered in GTE from 2020-2023 can enter, so it would lock out Audi, Mercedes, BMW, McLaren, etc. Force them to go via LMDH or LMH. I don't think they would want to use GT an excuse for an OEM to NOT do LMH/LMDH. Aston Marin might be the only one who could get away with that at this point. This might be a favor to the other GT3 series and races too.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

I think they should throw a twist that too, in that only manufacturers that entered in GTE from 2020-2023 can enter, so it would lock out Audi, Mercedes, BMW, McLaren, etc. Force them to go via LMDH or LMH.

It would make more sense to just limit GT3 to pro-am teams, keep the diversity while keeping the big OEM money out of the class.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Believe it or not, a lot of fans actually enjoy seeing relatable cars in the race. And a lot of manufacturers too would like to race something that looks like their road cars. Despite the initial intentions Hypercar failed in both accounts. Except maybe for Donkervoort, whose cars sort of do look like an egg with a beak and 4 wheels.

Thanks.

Yes. I know people like GT racing. It is great! As i said:

Originally Posted by Adam43

Anyway, all good, as it brings something more to the racing.

I was speaking more of why I think the ACO have GT at Le Mans.

1. It came to the rescue in the ‘90s with grids.
2. It gets big names in there which help with selling those hospitality boxes.

Obviously nothing is as simple, but those are both important.

I was also saying that I still think they need them to get 62 quality cars on the grid.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Adam43

1. It came to the rescue in the ‘90s with grids.

I see it more as a return to normal. GTs were always there, at times some really small/light/slow ones (Austins, Triumphs, Alpines), and were only briefly missing before returning in the '90s.

[Bcarr6]

I go back to my constant thought on this.

There is nothing wrong with the ruleset of the current GT3, what's the point of changing it.

GT3 at its current speed would certainly help the class heirarchy of WEC

I also agree per above, I have yet to see a GT2 car that is more exciting than GT3

[tux]

I just saw that to buy a new R8 GT2 will cost you $422,000. A new R8 GT3 $460,000, i was expecting a larger gap if im honest.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I see it more as a return to normal. GTs were always there, at times some really small/light/slow ones (Austins, Triumphs, Alpines), and were only briefly missing before returning in the '90s.

True. Interesting that as soon as they could fill the grid with decent prototypes they did. Was how I was thinking about this.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

I go back to my constant thought on this.

There is nothing wrong with the ruleset of the current GT3, what's the point of changing it.

GT3 at its current speed would certainly help the class heirarchy of WEC

I also agree per above, I have yet to see a GT2 car that is more exciting than GT3

Originally Posted by tux

I just saw that to buy a new R8 GT2 will cost you $422,000. A new R8 GT3 $460,000, i was expecting a larger gap if im honest.

It's not so much the rules as the teams wanting, and the series caving, on pro/pro lineups. The cars themselves have been shown to be drivable by Ams, as you would expect some prefer a Porsche to Ferrari or Aston but it doesn't sound like any NEED a pro to be driven. Just to be driven at the edge. Instead of pretending the rules are the problem, maybe it's the allowing all pro teams in your "pro-am" series there Ratel.

That said I could see the ACO adopt pros in prototypes and 'pro-am' in GT3s to fill out their 62 garages. They already have that with GTE-Am, it's just a step back with the cars. Given we all pretty much assume the GTEs we see now are it and we aren't getting new ones it's going to fade away sooner rather than later. Would the ACO want the pro-pro teams of other GT series to move over as field fillers or would they rather their rules for LMH/LMDh and LMP2 be the vast majority of the field and GT3s with Pro-Am be the entry to LM racing.

Could give you:
WEC/LM with LMH/LMDh, LMP2 and GT3
ELMS LMP2, LMP3 and GT3 (as we already have correct?)
IMSA (if they're smart and play along) LMH/LMDh, LMP2, GT3, sorry LMP3 you go back to support series.
AsLMS with a similar ELMS system

Gives you room for GT4/TCR as feeder/support series events for ELMS/IMSA/AsLMS if desired and room for both ACO and SRO to combine for car sales and keep GT manufacturers involved before we're all driving electrics and bored changing only wiper blades and washer fluids on weekends

[Mike E]

Not exactly the right thread but anyway...
IMSA GTD Pro technical and sporting regs announced. Short version - change as little as possible.

https://www.imsa.com/news/2021/06/09...uting-in-2022/

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Not exactly the right thread but anyway...
IMSA GTD Pro technical and sporting regs announced. Short version - change as little as possible.

https://www.imsa.com/news/2021/06/09...uting-in-2022/

Same tires and fuel, and same bop as the AM class. But they reserve the right to alter BOP by class if needed. If nothing else this is a good opportunity to see the impact of 2 pro drivers vs pro am in the same machines on the same tracks.

[WyldStallion]

A question for those of you reading who are mainly GT fans. Those of you who prefer prototypes don't really apply....

Would GTD Pro interest you still even though we have all these great GT races and series out there where the GT3 cars are the main and primary class? Wheras GT racing in IMSA, they don't compete with DPI cars on track but for TV time they certainly do. So on its own merit it does interest me, but sometimes its frustrating waiting for TV to continue to show DPI cars while I'm waiting to get to see the GT part of the race again.

[broadrun96]

Well the teams in GT in IMSA interest me more than GT America so there's that. I watch IMSA more as I can see them in person and it airs reasonably close to race time so I don't have to chase it down. I understand GT America streams live but I'm apparently old and remember better when it's on my TV listing.

I will admit I don't know the other teams but I've hit my limit for racing consumption so GT America lost out. I used to watch when it was Speed World Challenge but as it left Speed and then kept changing my interest waned, but it was always second to mixed proto/GT series racing.

Yes, that's US biased and there's much more GT to consume in Europe and more series to visit your local track and build that relationship.