F1 above criticism

[CATMAN]

Oh dear dear, did I offend some one or is F1 now above criticism? Just got in from ZA as I have business here for a few days before I head to Imola and then Barcelona. Called my son before my flight and as I drop by here at TT when in Blighty I thought I would remote post a talking point due to the current poor entertainment value that F1 is offering. But oh dear; like F1 management and teams someone has lost the plot here at TT as they seem unable to recognise what I believe to be a valid critique on F1 and moved my posting. OK, so I made a point using bike racing. So what moderators, if you look at the thread now hopefuly you will notice that some seem to have got the point. F1 and some of the teams need a good kick up the ********.
Rossi was brilliant and totaly awsome at Welkom as was Mad Max Biaggi, I love to watch racers race and my expensive sponsors race seat was wasted yesterday as I was on my feet along with many others as these guys gave there all. I am no Schumacher fan but he has never once enthralled a crowd the way Rossi aided by Max did yesterday. Ok the Red mist tainted Ferrari Tifosi may wet themselves when MS takes another team / stage managed win. But I have been on so many race ciruits over the years and I can not remember F1 entertaining in the way Moto GP did yesterday for many a year.
F1 needs to ditch the pay to play drivers and realise that drivers take a risk. The Teams and Engine people need to get their acts together and get cars that perform more equally. Other people must have some ideas so what is wrong with sparking some F1 ideas from Joe Punter at TT. Or like Max, Bernie and Co are the moderators so much in a self swallowing spiral movement that they do not recognise that you need open debate and criticism should be heard, noted, and further more used to make positive progress if the business of F1 is to maintain its position. Catman

[Adam43]

Not at all. I shout about the problems with F1 as much as the next guy. And Rossi's win was great.

So great in fact that it is best to celebrate it rather than turn it into something nasty. So I put it in the bike forum, hoping it would generate some decent discussion in that forum and promote that forum. That forum isn't the most popular on ten-tenths, lets get people in there talking about Rossi's superb first win on a Yamaha.

I always think it is best to celebrate by saying "yes that was great" rather than "ah, I can now put someone down". I see the only post you have made in the bike forum is the one I put there.

If you want to talk about something specific about problems in F1 then we invite you to start a thread about it. If you just want to crow then I don't feel this is the place for you. My favourites are the need to get rid of driver aids.

Also as you will see all us mods like other motor racing too. One of us is even named after a different branch! And as an example of myself, the numbber of GP attended in the last 15 years is 2 and the number of Le Mans attended is 14. You will also notice that there are several primarily 'F1' members who contribute to the bike forum.

[Adam43]

For those interested in the new Rossi era why not visit the bike forum. Talk about some real racing

Here is a good thread to start with: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=53115

And the forum in general: http://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisp...e=5&forumid=10

[Adam43]

And some interesting F1 threads, if you would like to visit here too!

Were people complaining about F1 being boring back in 1992?
How to make F1 more interesting
Blame Ferrari
Way to improve F1. Power and Grip.
Is F1 the pinnacle

I'm bored linking to these there are too many of them...

[CATMAN]

Well sorry Adam. But a critism of F1 belongs where the author put it. IN THE F1 Forum.
Using the triumph of Valentino was not likely to turn into anything nasty if people on these forum have sense of humour and can debate reasonably. It matters not how many LeMans or GP's one has attended, but recognition that F1 has a problem and that something in Moto GP might be doung what F1 needs is a fact that is best discussed in the F1 Forum. Not to simple surely. You are out of order Moderator. Get your act together and let the punters decide what and how to debate. Do some thing if they get out of order but do not censor which you have clearly done.
Respect ! Catman

[Adam43]

Originally posted by CATMAN
It matters not how many LeMans or GP's one has attended,

No it doesn't my point was that you seem to think that all we do is centred on F1 and it being the best and we don't want to tolerate anything else. That could not be further from the situation.

Originally posted by CATMAN
but recognition that F1 has a problem

We talk about what is wrong with F1 all the time.

Originally posted by CATMAN
and that something in Moto GP might be doung what F1 needs is a fact that is best discussed in the F1 Forum.

Indeed the advantages of other series are often cited as examples.

Your previous thread raised no points of discussion with regard to F1, other than to point out it was pants.

Originally posted by CATMAN
Not to simple surely. You are out of order Moderator. Get your act together and let the punters decide what and how to debate.

I'm sorry you feel this way. You seem to basing this whole censorship thing on the moving (with re-direct) to another open forum on ten-tenths! It made sure that it was put in a forum that attracted people with bike knowledge, thus giving it a more rounded audience. That thread now has a lot of discussion in it! I see no problem here and no not feel it reflects poor moderation!

Originally posted by CATMAN
Do some thing if they get out of order but do not censor which you have clearly done.

Your previous thread was not a discussion point about F1. However rather than just delete it I thought I'd take the opportunity of inviting people to enter the bike forum. As I said. It was not censored, it is still an open thread on ten-tenths.

You think we don't allow F1 crisism on this part of ten-tenths. You are wrong, as I said above.

[freud]

Originally posted by CATMAN
I am no Schumacher fan but he has never once enthralled a crowd the way Rossi aided by Max did yesterday.

Catman.. hip hip hooray.
This has to be the most sensible, the most logical, most **** true to its core, straight from the heart, simply the BEST sentence EVER written on the 10-10s forum.

[grumpy1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but have there only been 2 riders champions in the last 10 years.M.Doohan & V.Rossi both on Repsol Hondas (HMM sounds like Ferrari/Shuie).Granted he has now changed teams and bike manufacturor but Shuie won his first WDC with Benaton/Renault.

The Grumpy1

[Red]

Originally posted by CATMAN
F1 needs to ditch the pay to play drivers and realise that drivers take a risk. The Teams and Engine people need to get their acts together and get cars that perform more equally

Sorry mate, but this is absolutely ridiculous! You know what, teams and engineers work their arse to get their cars ABOVE the others cars! It's called competition. You don't really believe that Mercedes invest in F1 to get TV-rights money do you? No, Mercedes wants to beat BMW, and Ferrari doesn't want to make a car equal to Williams!

[DavidStHubbins]

Originally posted by grumpy1
Correct me if I'm wrong but have there only been 2 riders champions in the last 10 years.M.Doohan & V.Rossi both on Repsol Hondas (HMM sounds like Ferrari/Shuie).Granted he has now changed teams and bike manufacturor but Shuie won his first WDC with Benaton/Renault.

The Grumpy1

1993-2003

FIVE world champions

1.Schwantz
2.Doohan
3.Criville
4.Roberts
5.Rossi

[Irv the Swerve]

Bike racing more exciting than F1? - not exactly earth shattering news is it. The problems of F1 are being mulled over on this site continuously and some topic getting moved by Mr. Ashmore is no biggie. Whats the bigger problem, the state of F1 or the fact that the topic was moved?

[DavidStHubbins]

He does like to move things though doesn't he?!

[DriverT]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Your previous thread raised no points of discussion with regard to F1, other than to point out it was pants.

I agree. The author's post was tantamount to flamebait, so what did he expect? This is a discussion board, there was no point of discussion. It was just a put-down to F1.

I don't see anything wrong with moving it to the bikes forum anyway. There was still a link to it on the F1 forum!

[Adam43]

Originally posted by DavidStHubbins
He does like to move things though doesn't he?!

LOL. Everything in its correct place I do apologise if the moves cause upset.

Seriously, I think it would be great if lots of people experienced the bike forum and discussed this. Just a reminder of where the thread is http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=53115 Hopefully with there being more and more coverage on mainstream telly we'll all be able to get to see this racing more.

As for F1, what needs to be changed to make it better then? Perhaps it is time for this thread again?

[CATMAN]

Some here live and Die F1. The bike racing forum is buried down at 10th or 11th on the forum list. F1 is a big business, if you all think it is a sport. Well go and talk to those who work in F1, mention sport and they will fall about laughing. Yes they compete, but Bernie has lifted F1 above sport to a high profile sales opperation.
As the F1 circus was practicing for the Australian GP where was Max Mosely? Here in the UK visiting an F3 team to get another perspective on how other formula racers work and think about F1, and why unlike some years ago they are not likely to make an assault on F1. Max realises that F1 has problems and he is looking around to find solutions, you guys here follow so have your twopence worth and come up with some constructive ideas.Max may be looking here!
OK I used Moto GP two spark some open debate on F1 in general. With Jordan, Jaguar and Minardi teetering on the edge of exstinction (OH YES THEY ARE) and causing much concern with the powers in F1 something has to be changed. Sorry but the new qualifying only suits those in Red not the people who pay to watch. (we all pay through sponsorsip on your razors, fags or tyres etc).And why do you think Bernie is against it, he is losing viewers and $ in the process. Stuff all the work those engineers put in, bums on seats is what counts!
And as for Reds comment, sorry pal. But the Manufacturers accountants and marketing guru's want air time coverage for the products. Yeah the guys at the team want the car in P1 as do the Manufacturers but air time and magazine and newspaper coverage is what the money boys want. And with the state of Ford coffers world wide if the money boys think they are not getting value for ther $. Adios Jaguar and anyone else.
Just go look at Bentleys Le Mans Victory last year. A completely stage managed promotional opperation. OK the engineers had to put the package together and the drivers stay out front, but lots of obstacles were removed to try and ensure the win. Bentley got the Air Time and Press coverage they wanted for their Product. So have upped and gone this year.
Step back from F1 a bit and look at it carefully, it needs some changes, and manufactured racing sons of ex champions heading towards F1 is not good for the racing and the likes of Baumgartner with just a wedge of money behind him is not the answer to provide exciting weekend entertainment and competition.
F1 has lost its edge, manufactured glamour and competition is failing, raw edge, seat of your pants racing at 10/10 with cutting edge design and a little danger is what is needed. I am the last guy to want to see drivers killed or injured.
But all the bleating about safety issues when the FIA allows 30 guys to get on Moto Gp and Superbikes etc, is to me somewhat a double standard. You can be sensible when building and racing cars, but lets get some excitement back into F1 and some Racing!
I'm off to Imola tomorrow, and then a break in Valencia before Barcelona and home to Oz.
Enjoy your chosen wheeled entertainment, but lets get F1 back with some real wheel to wheel action.
And where are all those guys who were knocking Jenson a while back, I told you the boy just needed the tools. Unlike Blair he really does have Cojones and a racing pedigree that will see him as World Champ if the tool keeps doing the job. Mika and Co are eating their words I hope, and what are the odds on the rumours that Ferrari want him to replace Micheal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Adios

[Adam43]

Good post, CATMAN, phew there is a lot in that.

A general point, I agree with your comment about business and sport. All sports need some business behind them (to at least get it noticed by teh public), but the ratio between sport and business is wrong in F1. To a certain extent what Frank Williams once said (I think it was him) still applies (and I paraphrase)- F1 is a businesss, but between the lights and the flag it is a sport. Although sometimes I even wonder about that.

[Red]

Originally posted by CATMAN
And as for Reds comment, sorry pal. But the Manufacturers accountants and marketing guru's want air time coverage for the products. Yeah the guys at the team want the car in P1 as do the Manufacturers but air time and magazine and newspaper coverage is what the money boys want. And with the state of Ford coffers world wide if the money boys think they are not getting value for ther $. Adios Jaguar and anyone else.

(Using some spacing between paragraphs, every now and again, might be helpfull methinks )

Yes, that's precisely my point. However I fail to see yours. What exactly do you mean? BMW and Mercedes should perform close to Jaguar in order to keep Ford in F1? Ahem! Or you mean that Jaguar Ford should perform near Ferrari but they simply didn't know that so far? Well, now that you told them, just watch next race!

:confused:

[Armco Bender]

F1,the WWF of Motorsport.....

[Schummy]

If one doesn't like current state of F1, one doesn't have to feel "angry" against people who like F1. Let people decide what they like and what not. I particularly doesn't like current (last 10-20 years! ) F1 as much as I did in 70s or early 80s, but *cannot* change others people's preferences.

I don't own F1, so if I have a problem with F1, I just switch my attention to another sport. I like a lot FIM bikes and CART (well, better in former years), I also enjoy touring cars races. If multimillions people worldwide choose F1, well, me not liking F1 is *my* problem

To repeat my personal "mantra" about F1: I would like F1 was more like FIM bikes, but it is difficult to go back to 70s. I'd like they get ride of *all* wings, they use more interesting, different, bumpier circuits, they controlled the money in a better way (maybe a bit like NBA?).

My personal opinion is F1 is just an entertainment, not a transcendental, essential component of life, so it doesn't fit being too negative about things because of it. The same about F1 forums, if a F1 becomes too harsh I simply switch to another more pleasant one

About other more important thing in life I can be argumentative and defend my position "stubbornly" , but not about F1

[kdr]

Originally posted by Armco Bender
F1,the WWF of Motorsport.....

or F1 - Motorsport for the MTV Generation....

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Armco Bender
F1,the WWF of Motorsport.....

I think some would prefer it is F1 did fix the results to let others win

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by DavidStHubbins
1993-2003

FIVE world champions

1.Schwantz
2.Doohan
3.Criville
4.Roberts
5.Rossi

F1 1993-2003

1. Prost
2. Schumacher
3. Hill
4. Villeneuve
5. Hakkinen

FIVE world champions also!

[Red]

Nice KB!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by CATMAN
But all the bleating about safety issues when the FIA allows 30 guys to get on Moto Gp and Superbikes etc, is to me somewhat a double standard.

Bike racing is nothing to do with the FIA - it's controlled by the FIM!

[Gt_R]

There are SOOO many series around the world..if pasta doesn't suit your taste, just order steak.

Forcing yourself to eat pasta and say how much more pepper and meat isn't going to make you feel much better.

Yes, F1 needs changes. Sitting on their tail and waiting for cash to flow isn't going to work..BUT at least, F1 ISN"T WWF of motorsports. It doesn't have a script, it doesn't manufacture racing. Yes, rules are tweaked to promote racing, but at least we don't have success ballast to create artificial competition.

Ferrari is superior now. Michael is superior now...but nobody can blame them for excelling, and nobody wants them to slow down just to play with Montoya or mix with Alonso. What we want is those drivers/teams behind to pick up their game and PROVIDE the competition we want.

Business/sports..it's in every form of top level motorsports. The ratio is wrong in F1 now perhaps, but once any sports take over the "pinnacle", business would flock over.