[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

I was going to mention that example.

If the seats aren't selling, are new markets at least watching on TV?

That's a very good question. Suppose they are not watching F1 on TV, which has the highest profile in motorsport, then that doesn't bode much hope for the WEC. If they are watching F1 on TV, then why aren't they going to the actual venue to watch the race? Ticket prices were mentioned regarding the low attendance at the Chinese GP but I think it's a cultural thing. Motorsport just doesn't interest them. How long has the Turkish GP been going for? It's attendance is very poor; shame because the track is certainly one of Tilke's best.

[Purist]

A further note on those "young professionals" in China. Last I heard (a few months ago), the best any "normal" working couple could reasonably expect to make is the equivalent of $8,000 a year. That is TWO working, young professionals. They might be able to scrabble together enough for one, practical car, or they might just stick to using bikes if they're in a built-up area and don't have very long distances to travel.

Capitalism is certainly pushing into China, and elsewhere, but it's still largely with the relatively few well-to-do, and out of those, what percentage can we honestly expect to be really into auto racing?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

A further note on those "young professionals" in China. Last I heard (a few months ago), the best any "normal" working couple could reasonably expect to make is the equivalent of $8,000 a year. That is TWO working, young professionals. They might be able to scrabble together enough for one, practical car, or they might just stick to using bikes if they're in a built-up area and don't have very long distances to travel.

Capitalism is certainly pushing into China, and elsewhere, but it's still largely with the relatively few well-to-do, and out of those, what percentage can we honestly expect to be really into auto racing?

There is a thriving, but smallish professional, middle class in China, particularly in Shanghai and it is on the ascendant, but buying luxury western cars isn't driven by motorsport, purely status, just like every where else. The same thing in India, particularly in Mumbai/Bombay, with the Bollywood connection and that's before any Indian GP was ever conceived.

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by JAG

The last time there where any serious Le Mans based events in Asia was during the Group C era, everything since has lacked commitment and focus. On my own doorstep the LMS has offered large grids but isn't a replacement for a World Championship.

The greater goal of racing in Asia is to attract local manufactuers, if Ford or Dodge joined Corvette there'd be a better case for Sebring and PLM. The direction of NA sportscar racing can't be predicted, would anyone rule out a WEC round at Austin, Montreal, Watkins Glen, Daytona or say for certain tha ALMS will continue to exist in it's current form?

You must of missed where I excluded Japan and Australia, the only 2 countries to host relatively successful events in the region. Most people would not consider a race with 16 cars and half a dozen fans (IE the Shah Alam event) to be a success. If it was such a great event why didn't they return?

What better case do you need for PLM and Sebring? Both events outdraw everything in Europe except for Lemans and the Nurburgring. I'm even willing to bet that PLM last year outdrew Zuhai last year and all of the FIA GT events that followed it. Are you really willing to get rid of one (or both?) of the bigger promotional draws just to mildly attract Juangling and Chery to motor racing? I bet they would go as far as making the AMR-One and ECO Radical look like successful projects.

[JAG]

It's 2011 not 1985.

No one doubts what great events Sebring and PLM are, but I'd be more concerned with attracting manufactuers and teams to replace those who are being lost to the WEC and GA, or these events may not be part of any series.

[Nick6]

Well the 1985 race probably outdrew the 2010 race so I don't know where your trying to go there.

Food for thought... none of the recently involved Japanese manufacturers, Honda and Toyota (Dome and Rebellion efforts), even bothered to support JLM or the 2009 ACO race. I won't even bother to mention Zuhai.

[Deleted]

As far as the local or semi-local entries go we've had

2009 Aida - 2x JLOC Lambo, 1x Nova Aston, 1x Tokai University Oreca, 1x Hankook-KTR Porsche, 1x Scuderia Form Ferrari, 1x Daishin Ferrari, 1x Jim Gainer Ferrari, 1x Hong Kong AM Vantage = 39% out of all entries
2010 Zhuhai - 1x JLOC Lambo, 1x Tokai University Oreca, 1x KK Performance Audi, 1x Hong Kong Aston = 17% out of all entries

These are important figures 'cause full season ILMC/WEC grids will never be that massive to begin with, local support is needed. Last year they didn't even get the full six GTC/GT3 grid fillers they were hoping for

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Nick6

Well the 1985 race probably outdrew the 2010 race so I don't know where your trying to go there.

Food for thought... none of the recently involved Japanese manufacturers, Honda and Toyota (Dome and Rebellion efforts), even bothered to support JLM or the 2009 ACO race. I won't even bother to mention Zuhai.

Audi no longer support the ALMS, Peugeot pulled out of the LMS, the WEC is getting them on track.

Japanease manufactuers have contributed much to Le Mans in the past thirty years, they are being courted by the ACO and the signs of interest are there. Le Mans is a better event with their involvement but to avoid a repeat of '99 they need incentives such as racing on home ground.

As for Zhuhai, I believe Dagys had it down as one of his season highlights. That maybe for the experience as a whole, but unlike the LMS' trips to Turkey the event seems to have a good vibe.

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by JAG

Audi no longer support the ALMS, Peugeot pulled out of the LMS, the WEC is getting them on track.

Japanease manufactuers have contributed much to Le Mans in the past thirty years, they are being courted by the ACO and the signs of interest are there. Le Mans is a better event with their involvement but to avoid a repeat of '99 they need incentives such as racing on home ground.

As for Zhuhai, I believe Dagys had it down as one of his season highlights. That maybe for the experience as a whole, but unlike the LMS' trips to Turkey the event seems to have a good vibe.

Get Audi and Peugeot on track for what?

Japanenase manufactuers have HAD incentives in the last 5 years or so. None of them chose to support JLC or the Adia race. Either way I think the main reason why they chose to go sportscar racing in the first place is to promote them selfs in either Europe or in the case of Acura North America. In Japan the manufacturers already have a means of marketing them selfs, its called SuperGT. Here in North America we have something similar in Nascar, which is why you won't and don't see Ford and Chrysler involved in American Sportscar racing. Afterall the ACO has (of sorts) provided an incentive for them to get in involved in sportscar racing...

Besides what does any of this have to do with holding races in China? You wont get any meaningful manufacturer interest, unless your really holding out for that Cherry LMP announcement. The Zytek's are getting kind of old... we need another Reynard 02S knockoff.

I don't doubt that the city of Zuhai has its highlights, but the race its self doesn't provide anything. The only vibe felt was probably the vibration coming off of the empty grand stands.

[TF110]

What does China have in terms of manufacturers involved? None. Why do you think Chinese races are pretty weak? There are no Chinese car makers involved in these forms of motorsports. Only if.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by TF110

What does China have in terms of manufacturers involved? None. Why do you think Chinese races are pretty weak? There are no Chinese car makers involved in these forms of motorsports. Only if.

MG is Chinese owned and has a deal with the RLR LMP2 team. Of course, that isn't even a ILMC program and I have no clue if that program plans on expanding to the WEC. My guess would be probably not. Do they even sell MG branded cars in China?

[Mal]

Whilst new markets may be good I don't see the point of throwing away an event that regularly has nearly 100,000 spectators.

[Nick6]

In general buisness expanding into new markets is always a good idea however I tend to think Motorsports is different. I can't speak for everyone but at least here in North America most of us interested in motorsports are either involved in motorsports at a grass roots level or automobiles as a hobby. Maybe in 30 to 50 years when BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, etc... sell enough cars in China, groups of enthusiast will form and the market for motor racing will follow. Until then its pointless. 2 races in China next year would make this "world championship" a pathetic joke.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Nick6

In general buisness expanding into new markets is always a good idea however I tend to think Motorsports is different. I can't speak for everyone but at least here in North America most of us interested in motorsports are either involved in motorsports at a grass roots level or automobiles as a hobby. Maybe in 30 to 50 years when BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, etc... sell enough cars in China, groups of enthusiast will form and the market for motor racing will follow. Until then its pointless. 2 races in China next year would make this "world championship" a pathetic joke.

To be fair, FIA GT1 World Championship already has 2 races in China. Good news is that Fuji looks set to possibly be the second Asian race in WEC next year instead of a second Chinese round (which would have been/would be just stupid).

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TF110

What does China have in terms of manufacturers involved? None. Why do you think Chinese races are pretty weak? There are no Chinese car makers involved in these forms of motorsports. Only if.

Even the Chinese Touring Car Championship is dominated by Ford and KIA... somehow Chinese manufacturers seem to have very little interest in racing....

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Even the Chinese Touring Car Championship is dominated by Ford and KIA... somehow Chinese manufacturers seem to have very little interest in racing....

Is this why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbe5ILICT4M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5Jp...eature=related

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Is this why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbe5ILICT4M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5Jp...eature=related

Maybe but I think it's as Nick6 says in his post:

QUOTE=Nick6;2947623] I can't speak for everyone but at least here in North America most of us interested in motorsports are either involved in motorsports at a grass roots level or automobiles as a hobby. Maybe in 30 to 50 years when BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, etc... sell enough cars in China, groups of enthusiast will form and the market for motor racing will follow. Until then its pointless.[/QUOTE]

Up until very recently car ownership in Communist China was practically unheard of, they all went round on bicycles. It's hardly conducive for car enthusiasts and developing motorsports.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Nick6

Get Audi and Peugeot on track for what?

Japanenase manufactuers have HAD incentives in the last 5 years or so. None of them chose to support JLC or the Adia race. Either way I think the main reason why they chose to go sportscar racing in the first place is to promote them selfs in either Europe or in the case of Acura North America. In Japan the manufacturers already have a means of marketing them selfs, its called SuperGT. Here in North America we have something similar in Nascar, which is why you won't and don't see Ford and Chrysler involved in American Sportscar racing. Afterall the ACO has (of sorts) provided an incentive for them to get in involved in sportscar racing...

Besides what does any of this have to do with holding races in China? You wont get any meaningful manufacturer interest, unless your really holding out for that Cherry LMP announcement. The Zytek's are getting kind of old... we need another Reynard 02S knockoff.

I don't doubt that the city of Zuhai has its highlights, but the race its self doesn't provide anything. The only vibe felt was probably the vibration coming off of the empty grand stands.

Arguing against world championships staging races in China and Asia is fighting a losing battle.

Japan has the car culture, history and manufactuers, China huge car sales and growth potential.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ales-overtakes

NA deserves it's place on the calender, the ALMS brought NA teams back to Le Mans in numbers for the first time since the sixties. Their case would be strengthened further if Audi NA returned and the new Viper competes.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JAG

Arguing against world championships staging races in China and Asia is fighting a losing battle.

Japan has the car culture, history and manufactuers, China huge car sales and growth potential.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ales-overtakes

NA deserves it's place on the calender, the ALMS brought NA teams back to Le Mans in numbers for the first time since the sixties. Their case would be strengthened further if Audi NA returned and the new Viper competes.

Considering the racing heritage by all means have a race in Japan and China may very well have huge sales and growth potential but they don't have the racing culture or fan base. The attendance at the GP really says it all.

[Deleted]

In all honestly the attendance for the Grand Prix isn't that bad, it just looks terrible in TV because Shanghai has that ridiculously massive ~200,000 seat capacity. I've heard of +85,000 visitors on the race day alone, which considering everything isn't that bad really. The downside is that the track reminds me of diarrhea and enviroment lacks all the soul

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by JAG

Arguing against world championships staging races in China and Asia is fighting a losing battle.

Japan has the car culture, history and manufactuers, China huge car sales and growth potential.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ales-overtakes

NA deserves it's place on the calender, the ALMS brought NA teams back to Le Mans in numbers for the first time since the sixties. Their case would be strengthened further if Audi NA returned and the new Viper competes.

I agree with you about Japan, same thing regarding other flyaway countries such as Australia that already have an established racing culture. But China is just not ready yet until they have a strong grassroots local motorsports society before series such as the WEC should consider visiting China. I agree to make the manufacturers happy 1 round in China I am fine with, but 2 like suggested earlier is stupid.

Personally, Im happy that it looks like Fuji is included in the 2012 WEC calender. As for Petit, I love it, but lets face it, from all we have heard things are NOT looking good for its future as a WEC round sadly.

Also, Im not sure how Petit would succeed/continue as a fully ALMS race.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chiana

In all honestly the attendance for the Grand Prix isn't that bad, it just looks terrible in TV because Shanghai has that ridiculously massive ~200,000 seat capacity. I've heard of +85,000 visitors on the race day alone, which considering everything isn't that bad really. The downside is that the track reminds me of diarrhea and enviroment lacks all the soul

In it's inaugural year as a GP in 2004, the attedance was 260,000, so 85,000 is a big drop and considering the size of China's population that's tiny.

[Deleted]

Yes but that happens with every single soulless tilketrack supported by rich goverments and their PR needs, everybody is there for debut race but the interest quickly fades. I'm not defending the GP but 85,000 is much better than some European tracks are currently getting

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes but that happens with every single soulless tilketrack supported by rich goverments and their PR needs, everybody is there for debut race but the interest quickly fades. I'm not defending the GP but 85,000 is much better than some European currently tracks get

I thought they bussed them in China?

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by JAG

Arguing against world championships staging races in China and Asia is fighting a losing battle.

On who's behalf? I'm not the only one here that thinks its a bad idea if you haven't noticed.

Japan has the car culture, history and manufactuers,

I think we established that already!

China huge car sales and growth potential.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ales-overtakes

NA deserves it's place on the calender, the ALMS brought NA teams back to Le Mans in numbers for the first time since the sixties. Their case would be strengthened further if Audi NA returned and the new Viper competes.

BMW's, Porsche's and Audi's are selling in China because its "Western". IE its a prestique thing... not because who ever won the 24 hours of LM, ILMC or GP of Zuhai.

Again what more does PLM have to do to strengthen its case? Outdraw the 24 @ LM? Car companies go motor racing not to compete against each other, or necessarily race in their home countries but to advertise in front of potential customers. Pick any north American race and it already does this.

FYI, American teams have been going to Lemans in large numbers before ALMS was ever thought of. Come to think of it Japanese teams too... and this is without an ACO sanctioned anywhere close to them.

Originally Posted by Chiana

The downside is that the track reminds me of diarrhea and enviroment lacks all the soul

Ohh dear....

I

Cant

Stop

Laughing