Well as the Season Comes to an end, Let's discuss next year

[grichie87]

Originally Posted by Stratton Mackay

Personally will be back in the DMN ( or whatever) in the Subaru

New and improved, no more power but prettier than ever !!!!!!

The DMN or your car ?
Any ideas on rule changes, classes, venues for next year ??

[chezza]

The rule changes have been publicised in Brief Torque (club mag) for the BARC SEC series.

With regard to venues, we're just starting to get into sorting things like that for next year, so again its a watch this space!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by chezza

You can only run a series on a clubmans permit, you can't do that with a registered championship, you have to run it on the permit that the championship is registered for.

And as for clubs giving away memberships free or for little money, I'm sure not many clubs can afford to do that and also what about those that have paid full price for their membership, its hardly fair on them.

Chris_W with regard to the regs for the TinTops...watch this space!

Ok Chezza tell me what runs on Nat A now?....not alot, there is no need, the majority run on a Nat B permit, its why we are getting fewer and fewer clerks rising up the chain, because, there arnt enough mneetings for them to get signatures for their Nat A (Unless they are MSVR or BRSCC) which is great for them, but not so for anyone else, you can now run NEAFP on a clubman permit (we did this year) so I dont need to go up to Nat B even and one thing I think is certain, you will have two levels soon, National and International, that will be it!

As is a common joke around certain circles, there is a certain gentleman who runs a club (I may have mentioned it before in this thread) and he would gladly run the F1 GP on a clubman permit if he could!, if you have Track Day Championships Chezza, you can have Clubman ones as well.

And what do clubs need membership fees for?...and why not then include and cost your entry fee accordingly?...surely that is fairer? If someone enters two cars into an event, they pay TWO entry fees...a portion of which is attributed to club running costs ....if someone doesnt enter the event, they dont pay anything....I think you will find that a hell of a lot of competitors would prefer that.

The only reason why people say things cant be done is because its the "we've always done it this way"...and as Andy has stated and I believe he may be right....somethings got to give and if its a club because they are charging 95 quid "registration fees" (please tell me WHAT costs 95 quid to register?...the club to register is two thirds of that annually....I suppose it might be all the paperwork and memo pads that need to be purchased or supported?...ha ha..) .its the twenty FIRST century! get a grip clubs! go back to providing value for money to your CUSTOMERS (your members) and get a reality check on the fact that its the 21st century and people dont want all that rubbish.

even if 360 ran 20 races a year I would not charge "membership" i tried it and it is a complete waste of time, this year, we set the price and in that entry is a small amount that is ringfenced for admin costs (like stamps etc) its fair because Everyone who is at the event pays what they should...and poor old driver b whose car blew up on day one of the season...hasnt paid for something that he hasnt used!

[Chris_w]

Originally Posted by chezza

And as for clubs giving away memberships free or for little money, I'm sure not many clubs can afford to do that and also what about those that have paid full price for their membership, its hardly fair on them.

Would be good to see more weekend/one off memberships offered, would encourage more people to dip into a visiting championship if, as LancsBreaker says above, there are a lot of racers who are looking to keep travel costs to a minimum. The series gets bigger grids and more variety, and we get more choice or who to race with without getting clobbered for multiple annual membership fees.

[Al Weyman]

What Claire said! ^^^ Weekend memberships, CTCRC have been (with BARC) doing this for last two seasons 3 races I think is allowed £25 for both clubs. CSCC let you have one race taster.

[MartinSmith]

But even that isn't enough Al, if you buy a ticket to fly somewhere do you have to pay to be a member of the Airline? No you don't, its an atiquated way of getting money for nothing which is neither fair nor indeed needed.

The Organising Club (airline) pays its registration to the MSA (CAA) and that's fine so then, if you choose to race (fly) you buy an entry (ticket) and that ticket covers you membership (admin)

Its fairer and does away with a customer feeling that they have paid for something that is not needed, if ya go with BARC (BA) you pay them if ya go with 360 (Easyjet Ha) you pay us, no one is out of pocket.

Times need to change

[Tim Falce]

This is another reason I've cut back on the series I do. JEC want £30something club membership plus £70+ per championship registration. SRGTC want £70+ registration plus I HAVE to join the 750MC. Thoroughbreds are cheapest at £35 registration but at least they always give us it back and more each year but we still have to join the the MGCC, best value and best racing is the Thoroughbreds so the others lose out.

[MarkG]

club racing is a drug... it has to be, for ordinary folk to pay what must amount to about £1000 per hour for "seat-time" over a season.. and I suspect clubs and circuits etc do very well thankyou-very-much servicing this drug.. and even if some manage to kick the habit, or at least, reduce their intake, there's the upper level of the very-well-off who have plenty, who more than keep things ticking over.



I'm not bitter

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

This is another reason I've cut back on the series I do. JEC want £30something club membership plus £70+ per championship registration. SRGTC want £70+ registration plus I HAVE to join the 750MC. Thoroughbreds are cheapest at £35 registration but at least they always give us it back and more each year but we still have to join the the MGCC, best value and best racing is the Thoroughbreds so the others lose out.

The reason why you have to Join 750 is because I bet its a clubmans permit!

There's no harm in that, but the membership could be included proportionally in the entry

[BertMk2]

With rallying the club entry criteria tends to be based on a regional association of clubs - for example I'm a member of Maidstone & Mid Kent Motor Club, but M&MKMC is a member of a number of regional associations (which I can't remember off the top of my head ). So as a member of M&MKMC I can enter events run by other clubs within the regional associations with no additional club membership fees required. I don't know if anything similar exists for circuit racing? If not maybe it's something worth considering? It does of course require some level of agreement between the clubs - which may not be possible in circuit racing?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

With rallying the club entry criteria tends to be based on a regional association of clubs - for example I'm a member of Maidstone & Mid Kent Motor Club, but M&MKMC is a member of a number of regional associations (which I can't remember off the top of my head ). So as a member of M&MKMC I can enter events run by other clubs within the regional associations with no additional club membership fees required. I don't know if anything similar exists for circuit racing? If not maybe it's something worth considering? It does of course require some level of agreement between the clubs - which may not be possible in circuit racing?

It works the same in Race clubs. we (organising clubs) all belong to a regional association.

Thing is, maybe its just me, because I dont believe in the tax disc either and Membership is the same, its an old way of doing business. When we have an event, drivers have to sign on, they prove they have the correct licence for the event as such, that side of the paperwork is done on the day, most of the paperwork is. Entry nowadays can be automated, systems exist that allow that, all of the admin as in any other service industry, should be factored into the entry fee, that simple. Put it this way, our (360) memberships will or could change every for every event.

But lets take a different view, you run a championship, so if you do, you need the competitors to commit, membership takes care of that in some respects and you need to run the Championship so you would argue that you need a fee from them for that....I would ask WHY in this day and age. If the driver doesnt attend, they dont get the points/win whatever, thats their hardship. If you still want they could still REGISTER for the championship, but again, their "admin/membership" fee would and should be applied per entry.

If Im talking rubbish please tell me? I'm not, I know it can be done, its just that people get their "ohhhh thats change" feeling and run for the hills.

AS I said, Organising clubs as well as Motorsport in general needs to wake up and smell the coffee I think....its time to change the system I think.

[The Fat Clerk]

AS I said, Organising clubs as well as Motorsport in general needs to wake up and smell the coffee I think....its time to change the system I think.[/QUOTE]

Clare talking sense as ever.

[Al Weyman]

I agree its not enough Claire what CSCC AND CTCRC are offering however I don't mind paying something towards admin either as you say by adding it to the entry or a token £25 or so. Everything even timing can now be done electronically there are now huge opportunities to streamline the system. Pete Edwards who took over chairmanship of CTCRC has some good ideas and has said unfortunately he was only standing for one year (hope he changes his mind) but the first thing he did was give the club full colour A5 printed magazine the heave ho saving absolute thousands of pounds this IMHO is what we need. As I have said the Barbies are fun and appreciated and the club has cut those down from a previous grand a time getting caterers in to a slender £200 a time with the help of drivers wifes (as used to happen when I played rugby) this is not sexist and is really appreciated by all the members and the girls I believe like to do it as well as it includes them in the whole scene. All this sort of thinking is the way to go IMHO.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I agree its not enough Claire what CSCC AND CTCRC are offering however I don't mind paying something towards admin either as you say by adding it to the entry or a token £25 or so. Everything even timing can now be done electronically there are now huge opportunities to streamline the system. Pete Edwards who took over chairmanship of CTCRC has some good ideas and has said unfortunately he was only standing for one year (hope he changes his mind) but the first thing he did was give the club full colour A5 printed magazine the heave ho saving absolute thousands of pounds this IMHO is what we need. As I have said the Barbies are fun and appreciated and the club has cut those down from a previous grand a time getting caterers in to a slender £200 a time with the help of drivers wifes (as used to happen when I played rugby) this is not sexist and is really appreciated by all the members and the girls I believe like to do it as well as it includes them in the whole scene. All this sort of thinking is the way to go IMHO.

Little steps in the right direction Al. Remember, Im not saying that its the only way, all Im saying is that I believe that MotorSport needs to open its eyes to the real world, we are in the biggest financial mess since 1929, things are going to get worse and the average competitor/customer/punter* (delete as accordingly) needs to see value for money because if they dont, they will either go elsewhere....or go down the pub and not bother with Motorsport, its not a question of only the fittest will survive, its a question of only the foolhardy will think "we're ok"

[Tim Falce]

So who's going to try and convince the old farts that have always done it their way that it's time to change?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

So who's going to try and convince the old farts that have always done it their way that it's time to change?

That's the challenge Tim but unless we try, nothing WILL change. It needs people like Claire and others to keep pushing the envelope and stop the 'we've always done it that way' mentality

[Flat Out Farr]

Originally Posted by MarkG

club racing is a drug... it has to be, for ordinary folk to pay what must amount to about £1000 per hour for "seat-time" over a season.. and I suspect clubs and circuits etc do very well thankyou-very-much servicing this drug.. and even if some manage to kick the habit, or at least, reduce their intake, there's the upper level of the very-well-off who have plenty, who more than keep things ticking over.



I'm not bitter

I had to give up racing nearly 4 years ago due to diabetes. Interestingly, I still have a current medical to take part in 50m scuba diving. Which is more dangerous, motorsport or Diving (answers from Colnbrook in any form !!)

Although I have been in Spain for the last year, If I was living back in the UK permanently again, I would be doing everything to get involved. Training up as a scrutineer would be way to give something back to the sport. I went to Jerez in Jan this year to see the F1 testing (as it is only an hour's drive from my flat). Talk about needing the fix.

IMHO i couldn't really afford to compete but I ducked and dived and wheeled and dealed so that I could. The ex-wife wasn't that impressed; tough ! The Mk2 wife is the complete opposite. She came to DMN rounds and Superbike with me and loved it. Fit blokes in one piece leather suits may have had something to do with it !!

As I am back in the UK for a few months on agency work, I will be at Brands for the last DMN round this weekend and the last Cannons race @ Brands 2 weeks later, so am hoping to see some old faces.

[Flat Out Farr]

Originally Posted by BertMk2
With rallying the club entry criteria tends to be based on a regional association of clubs - for example I'm a member of Maidstone & Mid Kent Motor Club, but M&MKMC is a member of a number of regional associations (which I can't remember off the top of my head ). So as a member of M&MKMC I can enter events run by other clubs within the regional associations with no additional club membership fees required. I don't know if anything similar exists for circuit racing? If not maybe it's something worth considering? It does of course require some level of agreement between the clubs - which may not be possible in circuit racing?

Bert; the associations are ASEMC, LCAMC, AEMC etc. I used to be the co-ordinator for ASEMC speed championship many years back. The system worked very well. I belonged to Borough19 and that allowed me to compete in any rounds where the Associations were an invited member.

I agree; if the various clubs, i.e. BARC, BRSCC, 750, CSCC etc operated a similar system, then there would be a better chance of more full grids as you could choose your events, especially in today's economic conditions.

[Al Weyman]

Its the same arguement for retaining manual timekeepers now we have expensive systems in place. I have always been told we need them there as back up, well OK but IMHO if they made us aware that no working transponder no time, sorry thats the rules then I think it would be fair enough. Obviously the odd transponder will go down during an event but I would imagine this to be very rare and once the qually is out the way its pretty easy to visual who has crossed the line first in most cases. I mention this as I was once told by a top BARC official when trying again to negotiate a better entry deal when I ran ModProds that one of their biggest administrive on the day expense at the time was Timekeepers and this was pre TSL but with event of TSL when asked the same question was told that MSA (again) still require them to timekeep manually???

[chezza]

Originally Posted by Flat Out Farr

I had to give up racing nearly 4 years ago due to diabetes. Interestingly, I still have a current medical to take part in 50m scuba diving. Which is more dangerous, motorsport or Diving (answers from Colnbrook in any form !!)

Although I have been in Spain for the last year, If I was living back in the UK permanently again, I would be doing everything to get involved. Training up as a scrutineer would be way to give something back to the sport. I went to Jerez in Jan this year to see the F1 testing (as it is only an hour's drive from my flat). Talk about needing the fix.

IMHO i couldn't really afford to compete but I ducked and dived and wheeled and dealed so that I could. The ex-wife wasn't that impressed; tough ! The Mk2 wife is the complete opposite. She came to DMN rounds and Superbike with me and loved it. Fit blokes in one piece leather suits may have had something to do with it !!

As I am back in the UK for a few months on agency work, I will be at Brands for the last DMN round this weekend and the last Cannons race @ Brands 2 weeks later, so am hoping to see some old faces.

I'm sorry Chris, I have to say motorsport...if something were to happen to you diving your only likely to cause harm to yourself, with motorsport your in charge of what is potentially a killing machine. You could not only injure yourself, but other drivers and marshals. I know anyone can be come incapacitated and well managed diabetes can cause no issues, but...!

Hopefully will bump into you sometime over the last two meetings Chris.

[mig]

think its about time the drivers and clubs got together, dropped the egos and political junk and put pressure on the powers that be before our sport collapses.We can always do trackdays no scrutineering, msa licences, race suits, rollcages, harnesses or proper seats and we can thrash around most tracks 20 at a time, hang on a minute thats racing wonder how long before this is priced out of reach.

[Al Weyman]

Good point well made Chezza. I know someone diabetic who had several hypos at the wheel of a road car, drove for miles and never realised where he was when he came round! He had to give up his driving job and now has a restricted licence.

[Podd37]

I've just found this thread and agree with everything on it. My 1st year with CSCC was curtailed due to major car issues which all but finished my years racing. The 'wasted' reg fees made me wait until the last second the following year before I comitted. Seeing as I only did 3 events a year with them over the next couple of years, I have always felt its a bit much. Then the entry fees rose this year, that was me out.
What I think we as drivers seem to forget is that we are the customers, we have great power. This thread should be posted by each of you to others you know on here so we dont have just the same 5 people typing after a glass of wine. Try it and see if there is support. I have been lambasted over here for criticising entry fees yet our main circuit has formed its own club that ran a race meeting a few weeks back with entry fees almost half a normal event. Unfortunately they really didnt tell anyone so numbers were still crap. But its a move in the right direction which hopefully will help next season. If clubs and particularly drivers vote with their feet, then things will change. It works in most other forms of business. When people stop buying, prices will fall. I also believe classes and drivers need to be a lot more open minded about who they race with. Most of us will never win anything so it shouldnt really matter if an mgb runs against a fiesta or whatever as long as the grid is full and the racing clean. Its much more fun to be in a 26 car grid than a 10 car one.

[Al Weyman]

Well Podd I do agree with your last sentiment and had my best race of the year in Bernie's V8's with a 32 car entry and the regs were virtually none exisitant. I didnt find one guy to race with I found about 6 or 7 just see my action packed video for proof of that. This was really refreshing after running in a tightly controlled formula for the last few years where I dont come anywhere anyhow. Look I am never going to beat the likes of Arthur Thurtle or Simon Lane, Pete Halford etc in my self built machines and I knew that when I entered but I still finished midfield and had a ball. The fast guys were no further ahead of me than the M3's and Cossies I usually pitch the car against so what the heck. In fairness to CTCRC where I will continue to race one of my cars as I said previously moves are afoot to address some of these cross platform problems and open things up a lot.

[chezza]

Timekeepers are one of the biggest expenses after the track hire. But if you don't have manual timekeepers who is going to input all the transponder numbers into the system and allocate them to the correct car especially for the "hire" transponders that are allocated on the day, who is going to set up and manage the equipment, who is going to add the drivers who enter at the last minute and make any necessary amendments, who is going to tell you that your transponder isn't working, who is going to pull off the lapcharts when you think you have overtaking under safety car, etc, etc, etc?!