Well as the Season Comes to an end, Let's discuss next year

[SFurness]

I had a rubber suit on !!!!!!!!!!!!

Errr best get back onto the thread subject.



Steve

[historic racer]

We need to rewind back to the start of the 70s when I first took to the tracks. Then you joined one club and whatever club was running a race meeting there was a list of invited other clubs, you could race at Brands every other weekend with everytime a different club all for your one club membership . None of this membership fee and another large registration fee on top, time for the clubs to get together , time for the competitors to vote with their feet and do less meetings. If drivers halved their meetings for just one year the clubs would have to take notice, less competitors means less meetings then the circuits would have to sit up and take notice ,people power will always prevail.

[Robert Morris]

For me this year we have seen to many local date clashes i do hope next season is better.
I agree we should be able to join One motor club and race in any series! Having to join extra clubs to compete in different series certainly makes me think twice, and has put me off, on more than one occasion.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Robert Morris

For me this year we have seen to many local date clashes i do hope next season is better.
I agree we should be able to join One motor club and race in any series! Having to join extra clubs to compete in different series certainly makes me think twice, and has put me off, on more than one occasion.

It's not just racing in different series that requires joining more that one club. Just to race in the BARC (SEC) Tin Tops alone requires being a member of BARC and then a member of the SE centre as well as registering for the series, and thats not the only series that works that way. Ive been racing for 10 years and still find this setup baffling/amusing! - If I was just starting out racing this arrangement would just be another barrier and i would probably go somewhere with less paperwork!

The sport is unnecessarily difficult to get into and I think puts off a lot of casual racers. One thing that would be nice is for maybe the MSA to list all the series/championships possible at all clubs (maybe you could filter out non local series etc) with a brief concept of the series and a link to regs and club requirements if you wanted more info.

At the moment it seems back to front, where you have to trawl through hundreds of clubs and regs to hopefully find somewhere to race. It should just be a case of.. i've got a fairly standard tin top and want to race in the south mostly, what series are most suitable, and the website comes up with a shortlist. I dont and shouldn't care who the club happens to be until i sign up.

Rant over lol

[grichie87]

Okey dokey next season Tin Tops or DMN (or what ever its called then) I like them both only one way to find out...... Fight!!!
My car will fit in both championships so whats best??

[grichie87]

Originally Posted by Dom

It's not just racing in different series that requires joining more that one club. Just to race in the BARC (SEC) Tin Tops alone requires being a member of BARC and then a member of the SE centre as well as registering for the series, and thats not the only series that works that way. Ive been racing for 10 years and still find this setup baffling/amusing! - If I was just starting out racing this arrangement would just be another barrier and i would probably go somewhere with less paperwork!

The sport is unnecessarily difficult to get into and I think puts off a lot of casual racers. One thing that would be nice is for maybe the MSA to list all the series/championships possible at all clubs (maybe you could filter out non local series etc) with a brief concept of the series and a link to regs and club requirements if you wanted more info.

At the moment it seems back to front, where you have to trawl through hundreds of clubs and regs to hopefully find somewhere to race. It should just be a case of.. i've got a fairly standard tin top and want to race in the south mostly, what series are most suitable, and the website comes up with a shortlist. I dont and shouldn't care who the club happens to be until i sign up.

Rant over lol

We have had this chat before, MSA, BARC, BARC SE, and local club membership, register, pay the entry then you can race the car!!
But that is the nature of the beast.
It should be easer to find a series to race in, and then simple to get into.
We all want more cars on the grid and close in class racing. There has to be a better way forward so we can keep doing what we all love at a reasonable cost

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by grichie87

We all want more cars on the grid and close in class racing. There has to be a better way forward so we can keep doing what we all love at a reasonable cost

There undoubtably is a better way forward, and as already stated by others, I reckon it's 'people power'. But the problem is going to be in trying to motivate said people to actually do something! We're all guilty (me included) of apathy when it comes to this, and we all moan about the costs of this and that, but that seems to be as far as most of us get!

I'll admit that racing's never going to be cheap, even at our grass-roots level. But I'd argue that it could be cheaper, although I'm the first to admit that I have no involvement with the admin side of racing so am not necessarily clued up on the costs involved.

But it does seem to me that we don't get a lot in return for things like registration fees, membership fees, and race entry fees themselves seem awfully high to me when you break them down into minutes per pound or whatever. Maybe I'm wrong, and I accept that the circuits have to operate as a business and make a profit, but it just seems like a lot of money to me.

If 100 cars enter a given meeting and all pay a £300 entry, that's takings of £30,000. Where does that all go? How much does it cost to hire, say, Oulton Park for the day?

I think the biggest problem facing anyone who tries to change the status quo is going to be overcoming the aforementioned apathy. The problem is that for every one of us racing on a tight budget (myself included), there are probably nine others to whom a £300 entry fee is small change. Let's face it, racing is a pastime that appeals to people with money, and many drivers, even at club level, have plenty of it. So these guys - and I've nothing against them - are not really motivated to kick up a fuss over entry fees, registration fees or whatever, as they can afford to pay up and get on with it. Those of us to whom further increases in costs could mean a cessation or at least a cutting back of our activities are perhaps in the minority.

And we all know hard it is getting heard if you're a minority group - unless, of course, you happen to belong to the right sort of 'politically correct' minority! But I don't think that's going to apply to us is it?

I may be completely wrong, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to put me right...

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Paul D

There undoubtably is a better way forward.....
If 100 cars enter a given meeting and all pay a £300 entry, that's takings of £30,000. Where does that all go? How much does it cost to hire, say, Oulton Park for the day?

I may be completely wrong, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to put me right...

There is a better way


A days hire + Rescue+Recovery+Scrutineers Expenses +Timekeepers+Admin+Medical/Doctors+Permit+Program+Clerks Expenses+Rapid Results Type Service+ Race Secretary Expenses + stewards expenses = about 30k. I am not going to discuss particularly what one circuit costs against another but they are mainly in the same ball park and circuit hire IS the biggest cost to ANY meeting.

We did this, we organised a race meeting...what everyone wanted and we said we will do it AT COST...for the drivers...the whole lot a club NOT FOR PROFIT...along the lines that you just have been....the more people who put in the cheaper it would get....great idea....100 entries = 30 k and you could put a meeting on for that

Thing is...if 100 dont put in...and only 50 do...then its 600 each.....and if only 25 turn up its 1200 quid....see the thing is Paul...its a great idea...till someone says "actually Im going to xxxxx instead" then...you still HAVE to pay the 30k

and where I got on my soap box long ago, is that WE the organising clubs need to sit down and SORT a calendar so that we dont have clashes and we ALL get a crack at the whip....but the thing is, its a free world and a free world market in Motorsport and you cant stop new series and new ventures....until we all choke ourselves and then perhaps some will listen......

[Paul D]

Claire - I don't disagree with you at all. The figure of 100 entries at £300 each is one I just plucked from the air at random as a figure that might be typical at a club meeting. The fact that I seem to have hit the target at £30K being what a day's circuit hire costs is purely coincidental I assure you! I really wouldn't have had a clue as to those costs.

So I wasn't actually suggesting that the solution is for 100 of us to get together to run a meeting - my figures were purely hypothetical.

However, now that you've filled us all in on roughly what it costs to hire a circuit, then the answer does seem to obvious - get twice as many people to enter and we could all race for half the entry fee! I realise that's over-simplifying it somewhat, but I think that's what you're getting at isn't it?

The difficulty is in getting those sorts of numbers, which brings me right back to something many have already touched upon: if we, as drivers, could move more freely between different clubs/series, without all the extra fees and red tape, then maybe more drivers would turn up at any given meeting.

But the only way that's going to be achieved is, as you've said, by the clubs getting together and starting to cooperate with each other a bit more. If all, or most, races could run with near full grids, then surely those entry fees could be brought down?

[historic racer]

I would imagine circuit hire to be 15 and 20k per day just how much do they want to earn, has anyone ever got hold of the end of year accounts for MSV would make interesting reading no doubt. I have to chuckle however, I remember being in the scrut bay at Thruxton talking to Steve Soper and others back in the 70s and a certain Jonathan Palmer ( medical student ) was really having a winge about , guess what, the high costs of entry fees. You couldn't write it could you, talk about poacher turned gamekeeper !!!!

[Tim Wilkinson]

Re: end of year accounts. You'd probably find out how much council tax, or rates, or whatever it's called, they have to pay. I seem to recall that's a huge expense for the circuits.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Re: end of year accounts. You'd probably find out how much council tax, or rates, or whatever it's called, they have to pay. I seem to recall that's a huge expense for the circuits.

A quick check shows the rateable values for
Brands Hatch to be:.........£1.020,000 - Rates payable therefore £441,660
Oulton Park to be:...........£ 540,000 - Rates payable therefore £233,820
Snetterton to be:............£ 325,000 - Rates payable therefore £140,725
Cadwell Park to be:..........£ 250.000 - Rates payable therefore £108,250
Donington Park to be:.......£ 450,000 - Rates payable therefore £194,850
Mallory Park to be:...........£ 198,000 - Rates payable therefore £ 85,734

All of which do put my business rates into perspective! Just more than £2K per week for Cadwell up to over £8K per week for Brands. I guess these costs have to contribute quite a bit to circuit hire charges....

[MJones94]

I don't like to get hung up with all the politics surrounding motorsport but I hope to be participating in some capacity next year. It will be my first of hopefully many years to come!

[grichie87]

Maybe we will have to find new ways to bring drivers into the championship, why race with us and not other series? Class winners get half price entry to the next round, speak to the circuits and perhaps a free test day for the driver of the day, if drivers can find sponcers for the championship a free entry.... just thinking out loud
Other championships must be having the same problems maybe join forces like the Fiats and Beetles do with the Tin Tops, join the D** and tin tops together? It could there is not enough cars in the South to cover the D** and Tin Tops so just one championship is the way forward, revise the rules to allow more flexability for unusal cars to come in without too much of a class change being levied on them. Join in a suscessfull championship with our smaller grid numbers and boost that up well you get the idea.
Or do nothing and let in disapear down the toilet !!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by historic racer

I would imagine circuit hire to be 15 and 20k per day just how much do they want to earn,

I don't think thnats even close for most circuits.

6-7 years ago Donington was £25K per day.

[JasperClan]

I know the cost of circuit hire and general meeting costs. I can understand club membership fees. But please can someone tell me what a registration fee gets me. I was hoping to spread my entries around next year but this plan calls for 3 registration fees totally around £300. I think I'll have to have a rethink.

Pete Richards

[R59]

Originally Posted by historic racer

We need to rewind back to the start of the 70s when I first took to the tracks. Then you joined one club and whatever club was running a race meeting there was a list of invited other clubs, you could race at Brands every other weekend with everytime a different club all for your one club membership . None of this membership fee and another large registration fee on top, time for the clubs to get together , time for the competitors to vote with their feet and do less meetings. If drivers halved their meetings for just one year the clubs would have to take notice, less competitors means less meetings then the circuits would have to sit up and take notice ,people power will always prevail.

Rewind to the 70's and how many people stood on the banks, sat in the stands. I'd wager it was heaving with punters paying to come in a watch a load of lairy Angleboxes, Minis, and the odd Camaro/Mustang/Falcon/Galaxie hurl around. The cost of insurance then (probably more like "what insurance!?") was a lot lower, many more unpaid volunteers doing it for the sport - like our ladies and gentlemen of orange. The grids were pretty well full too. Overall, the cost per competitor in real terms would be a fraction of what they are now.

Today it's all about rent. Sod the sport, poke up the rent and rake it in. If the clubs and circuit owners (other than Castle Combe, and now Knockhill) used their collective brains, they'd work on filling up the place, utilising the facility they have there as an entertainment venue - which is what it is.

I'd be interested to see Castle Combes books since they when their own way. They put on good meetings, they get good turnouts, and that brings in £SD in piles. Much more than renting out the empty room for the day.

Now - back to the thread, following that short reprise of my annually played scratched record, I aim to have the beastly Belmont out - with the engine nearly back together now - also my Pontiac Grand-Prix ASCAR out in road course trim doing something sideways.

[midgetman]

>>>>>I'd be interested to see Castle Combes books since they when their own way. They put on good meetings, they get good turnouts, and that brings in £SD in piles. Much more than renting out the empty room for the day.

You haven't been to Combe this year then. Disquiet on the terraces isn't the word for it!

[Al Weyman]

Make sure you do this year as well Rob!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by JasperClan

I know the cost of circuit hire and general meeting costs. I can understand club membership fees. But please can someone tell me what a registration fee gets me. I was hoping to spread my entries around next year but this plan calls for 3 registration fees totally around £300. I think I'll have to have a rethink.

Pete Richards

You're already a member with us

[JasperClan]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

You're already a member with us

I know and I'm working on the entry.

Pete Richards

[Robert Morris]

Originally Posted by JasperClan

I know the cost of circuit hire and general meeting costs. I can understand club membership fees. But please can someone tell me what a registration fee gets me. I was hoping to spread my entries around next year but this plan calls for 3 registration fees totally around £300. I think I'll have to have a rethink.

Pete Richards

Pete i agree one club membership should be enough.

[Al Weyman]

Seems too many people want a slice of the ever diminishing pie. I cannot think of any other sport or pastime this would happen, probably as traditionally the sport was associated with money and sponsorship all of which is seldom available any more but that message for some reason seems to be failing to sink in.

[midgetman]

Al, I suspect it's just the same in other sports, even though the numbers may be smaller.

For instance, my local cycling club Chippenham Wheelers holds Tuesday training sessions on private Tarmac. It used to cost a quid, chuck it in an honesty bag when you get there and it was a bung to the landowner. This year you have to register properly and it costs three quid per adult to cover administration and insurance costs. Where's the Tarmac? Oh, it's Castle Combe Circuit...kind of backs up your argument really

[Paul D]

This is what I don't get about some of these capitalist pigs! "Greed is good!" said Gordon Gekko in Wall Street. Yeah, right... to a point, but give me a break!

So it used to be a quid each, chuck it in a bag on the door mate. Now it's three quid each, and you've got to fill out these forms and register, so the 'landowner' now has to employ someone to oversee the administration of this and make sure none of the nasty cyclists are telling any porkies. So that costs him more money, hence the hike in price.

Factor in the high probability of half the regulars now taking the attitude of "Sod that, I didn't mind when it was an informal quid on the gate, but I can't be *rsed with all this form filling and stumping up more for the privilege - think I'll just go and ride me bike somewhere else."

Result? Landowner's takings decrease, overheads increase, profit becomes loss. Genius!