LM24 Waivers - Page 3

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 16:00 (Ref:2741394)

The LS7 is a production engine and found in every Z06 manufactured, the LS7 production engine is based on the C6R engine from the GT1 car. The LS7 is also the same production engine found in the GT3 car.

The minimum weight is fixed, I had to laugh out loud at that one…that must be why the FIA has added 110KG to the GT3 Corvette and raised the minimum weight of the GT1 from 1100KG to 1200KG and then another 30KG for good measure. I can’t believe Vitaphone had the marbles to complain about the speed of the Vette at Abu Dhabi.

Yes, because the regulations are a moving target, the ACO decided not to listen to Ratel and go their own way, unfortunately for Corvette they were already developing an engine for regulations that never would go into effect. Good for Porsche and Ferrari though.

Oh and just to add, if you think a LS7 is some huge heavy lump, think again, its compact and light, so don’t confuse displacement with weight/size.

HORNDAWG · 8 Aug 2010, 16:04 (Ref:2741395)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

Didn’t this all come about because of the sudden change to GT2 rules, I mean we are working to the lowest common denominator again. Didn’t Ratel coerce the ACO into changing the future displacement rules from a max of 8 liter to 5.5 for GT2, wasn’t it true that the only car this would affect was the Corvette and Viper?

Yes, that is/was Rat influenced. But they would/will more than likely use a 6.2L(LS3~LS9) as the LS7 is on the way out.

L.P.

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 16:15 (Ref:2741399)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

The LS7 is a production engine and found in every Z06 manufactured, the LS7 production engine is based on the C6R engine from the GT1 car. The LS7 is also the same production engine found in the GT3 car.

The minimum weight is fixed, I had to laugh out loud at that one…that must be why the FIA has added 110KG to the GT3 Corvette and raised the minimum weight of the GT1 from 1100KG to 1200KG and then another 30KG for good measure. I can’t believe Vitaphone had the marbles to complain about the speed of the Vette at Abu Dhabi.

Yes, because the regulations are a moving target, the ACO decided not to listen to Ratel and go their own way, unfortunately for Corvette they were already developing an engine for regulations that never would go into effect. Good for Porsche and Ferrari though.

you seem to be confused, we are talking hre about the GT2 class, GT3 class has nothing to do with it.

GT3 was build so that the manufacturesr could be cout out of the equation, it is heavily performance balanced and building factory cas for it defits the point because it will only be landend with weight. In GT3 the Teams/Driver adds much more performance then the car itself.

The GT2 class is built so Manufacturers could race each other with heavy involvment in the performance. It is also a production based class, as long as you have it on the car it is alowed! And the minimum Weight is fixed.
BTW Corvette could easily increase the bore of their engine and gt 6l, but then it would get smaller restirctors/less reliability as well, so your point doesen't hold.

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 16:20 (Ref:2741401)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Yes, that is/was Rat influenced. But they would/will more than likely use a 6.2L(LS3~LS9) as the LS7 is on the way out.

L.P.

The LS7 will be around at least until the next gen small block is released probably around 2012.

HORNDAWG · 8 Aug 2010, 16:33 (Ref:2741402)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

The LS7 will be around at least until the next gen small block is released probably around 2012.

I did not say it had been discontinued, but was on the way out.
The move to the 6.2L would give them an engine that will be a base for several years, as the LS7 was in GT-1. While the LS7.R was based on a production engine it was a fully prepped race engine and had hand made parts vs bin parts. So the LS7.R would not be legal in GT-2 and they would have to go through the process of building an LS7 out of bin parts. They would have to r&d an engine for a 1 or 2 year life cycle and that is not going to be approved by the bean counters!

L.P.

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 16:45 (Ref:2741407)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

you seem to be confused, we are talking hre about the GT2 class, GT3 class has nothing to do with it.

GT3 was build so that the manufacturesr could be cout out of the equation, it is heavily performance balanced and building factory cas for it defits the point because it will only be landend with weight. In GT3 the Teams/Driver adds much more performance then the car itself.

The GT2 class is built so Manufacturers could race each other with heavy involvment in the performance. It is also a production based class, as long as you have it on the car it is alowed! And the minimum Weight is fixed.
BTW Corvette could easily increase the bore of their engine and gt 6l, but then it would get smaller restirctors/less reliability as well, so your point doesen't hold.

I am not confused at all; my reference to GT3 was merely to point out that a production LS7 does exist and powers GT3s, and that the Corvette Z06 handles itself quite well in that series. There are plenty of good drivers in that series and they don’t all drive Corvettes.

As far as GT2 goes my point is that you have two engine design philosophies, lots of valves/small displacement or less valves/more displacement, the 5.5 liter max size was not in Corvettes favor. So all the caterwauling about waivers for the Corvette is a bit ridiculous, that was my only point.

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 16:51 (Ref:2741410)

well if your only poin was that they have a 5.5l engine, like i said it is easy enough for them to increase the displacement if they think that would give the mthe addvantige, so your point doesent stand.

As for the waivers, we will see, if the were given serius aero, chassis addvantiges over the competition that it wasn't realy fair now is it., and since 8l is still the max, no addvantiges were given to porsche or ferrari!

BTW you are discussing the fairness of the rules, I am discussing the fairness of aplying the rules, two different subjects in my opinion

HORNDAWG · 8 Aug 2010, 16:52 (Ref:2741413)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

I am not confused at all; my reference to GT3 was merely to point out that a production LS7 does exist and powers GT3s, and that the Corvette Z06 handles itself quite well in that series. There are plenty of good drivers in that series and they don’t all drive Corvettes.

As far as GT2 goes my point is that you have two engine design philosophies, lots of valves/small displacement or less valves/more displacement, the 5.5 liter max size was not in Corvettes favor. So all the caterwauling about waivers for the Corvette is a bit ridiculous, that was my only point.

+1

L.P.

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 17:04 (Ref:2741418)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I did not say it had been discontinued, but was on the way out.
The move to the 6.2L would give them an engine that will be a base for several years, as the LS7 was in GT-1. While the LS7.R was based on a production engine it was a fully prepped race engine and had hand made parts vs bin parts. So the LS7.R would not be legal in GT-2 and they would have to go through the process of building an LS7 out of bin parts. They would have to r&d an engine for a 1 or 2 year life cycle and that is not going to be approved by the bean counters!

L.P.

I am just saying that had the future rules not been thrown out there, they just might have had time to test the LS7 instead of an engine that did not exist at the time. It s just my opinion but I believe the LS7 is a better start than what they presently have.

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 17:22 (Ref:2741421)

what you have is an asumption that the ls7 would have been better, but the new engine has given them more performance, from what is withnesed in the spec sheet

the 2009 LS9 6l engine gave them 470hp
while 2010 5.5l gave them 485hp.
the torque figuress of the new engine are unavailable to me, but I am assuming it has the same if not a better torque curve. --witch makes the new engine better

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 17:23 (Ref:2741422)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

well if your only poin was that they have a 5.5l engine, like i said it is easy enough for them to increase the displacement if they think that would give the mthe addvantige, so your point doesent stand.

As for the waivers, we will see, if the were given serius aero, chassis addvantiges over the competition that it wasn't realy fair now is it., and since 8l is still the max, no addvantiges were given to porsche or ferrari!

BTW you are discussing the fairness of the rules, I am discussing the fairness of aplying the rules, two different subjects in my opinion

I don’t think constantly changing engine configurations is conducive to consistent racing, and the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain. There is no sense in going back to the drawing board at this point, but who knows, an LS7 could make an appearance.

Yes, we will see, but until something is found out of spec you can still bandy about rumors of how Corvette Racing is keeping poor Ferrari and Porsche down.

What’s fairness got to do with it; its racing after all?

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 17:56 (Ref:2741440)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

I don’t think constantly changing engine configurations is conducive to consistent racing, and the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain. There is no sense in going back to the drawing board at this point, but who knows, an LS7 could make an appearance.

Yes, we will see, but until something is found out of spec you can still bandy about rumors of how Corvette Racing is keeping poor Ferrari and Porsche down.

What’s fairness got to do with it; its racing after all?

official specs for the corvette engines are 485 vs 470
only the torque is unknown.

when was it ever stated corvette was doing anything to Ferrari or Porsche.
Corvette wasn;t much of a bother for 90% of the races for Ferrari at least.

This thread was started to find out the truth behind the rumors, even if they were true I wouldn't want Corvette to in any way modify their cars, the racing is excelent. the whole waiver rumors could only serve as an icing on the cake, or a consilation prise for Ferrari and Porsche fans, other then that its preaty pointless except that it goes to show if the cars will be elgable to race next year in the FIA European Cup, because the FIA is a bit more Rules oriented then the ACO.--this statment only aplies to the fia gt2 championship, all other fia wrongs or rights are not part of the discussion

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 18:32 (Ref:2741453)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

ok now am glad their engines blew up, up until now I was convinced that the corvettes were runing fully under the regulations!!

this is plain stupid!! whats the point of giving the car that was the fastest a fuel consumption addvantige as well, and how much of the performance can be found in those waivers!

Although I love what the gt2 class has become, only porsche and ferrari will remain in my eyes true gt2 cars, all other cars will always have badge of shame on them!

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 18:38 (Ref:2741456)

exaly,

Icing on the cake, or cosolidation prize for Porsche and Ferrari fans.

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 19:03 (Ref:2741471)

I suspect that cake is going to taste pretty rancid in the near future. In the meantime if I was Ferrari I would be more concerned about checking the specs on their own car. Badge of shame on them!

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 19:15 (Ref:2741481)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

I suspect that cake is going to taste pretty rancid in the near future. In the meantime if I was Ferrari I would be more concerned about checking the specs on their own car. Badge of shame on them!

what to you mean

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 19:39 (Ref:2741503)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

what to you mean

I mean Corvette won’t always be in development and they are getting closer all the time.

Didn’t Ferrari get sent to the back of the bus at Lemans for a tech infraction?

Didn't Porsche get caught with illegal cylinder liners?

I don’t want to hear excuses, rules are rules right?

What I am trying to say is before you start passing out “Badges of Shame” for every car that is not a Porsche or Ferrari maybe turn that all seeing eye on your own team. I am not a big fan of waivers, but it is most definitely not cheating.

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 20:13 (Ref:2741544)

you are nitpicking, you are comparing a small bodywork infraction, witch was corected befor the start of le mans, with 47 unknown waivers, that is rediculus

and what porsche did was plain cheating, if they asked for a waiver for it it wouldn;t have been, but they asked no one!

I am sure the corvettes will develop, but from where I am standing, ferrari improved more year on year then the corvette did!

and next year comes the 458 DFI +DCT baybe