[LM24 Race] 1955 the crash that almost ended motor racing

[AllonFS]

I think the ACO even now doesn't want to remember what happened in 1955. Lets face it, no-one apart from the fans affected (killed, injured or 'just' witnesses) and those who had to deal with the carnage comes out of it with much credit. The drivers, whilst honest about what their motivations were and what it was like to drive then, still blame each other along team lines. It was the Mercedes bosses in Germany who pulled the team, not Neubauer at the circuit and Jaguar raced on. The plaque does seem to me to be the minimum the ACO feel they could get away with, personally the I think a memorial of some sort in the new Village square behind the pits would be more fitting.

The reconstructed footage was fascinating though. Impossible to tell how much Hawthorn cut in front and then braked, but the puff of dust and skid from Macklin shows that whatever the reason, he temporarily lost control. Until then Macklin was doing the correct thing and keeping to the right so the much faster Jags and Mercs could pass on the left well away from the pits. It also looked like such a faint touch on the Mercedes which sent it straight up, almost any other contact would surely not have launched it the way it went. Poor Levegh and the spectators stood no chance.

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by Piglet

It's a tasteful memorial at the spot where the accident occured - what else do you want? Bunting?
.

No I dont want bloody bunting. Thats in poor taste to even suggest it and from an administrator i find the remark very poor to say the least.

I have never seen the plate or even where it is sighted and its this I find hard to believe (that its so hard to find).
There are memorials to all kinds of tragedies so as to people finding them distateful, thats laughable. We congregate around memorials every year.
Im proud to be a part of the current safety set up and thank God or whoever it is that helps to make these decisions following such harrowing incidents to make our sport safer for everyone.

[johngee]

I guess it depends on your personal view of memorials - personally, memories and emotion are more powerful for me than granite and brass plaques, which can become unkempt and neglected
OT, I visited Sicily last year and amonst the crumbling remains of the pits and grandstand of the start area of the Targa Florio circuit was a memorial to Vincenzo Florio, totally overgrown and inaccessable - a very sad sight and, in a way, a sort of insult.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by johngee

I guess it depends on your personal view of memorials - personally, memories and emotion are more powerful for me than granite and brass plaques, which can become unkempt and neglected
OT, I visited Sicily last year and amonst the crumbling remains of the pits and grandstand of the start area of the Targa Florio circuit was a memorial to Vincenzo Florio, totally overgrown and inaccessable - a very sad sight and, in a way, a sort of insult.

Yes memorials can get forgotten but only if the people let them be, to use that as an excuss for Le mans not to remember what happened is indeed an insult. The worse accident in motor racing history will never be forgotten whilst we are still allowed to race motorcars but that is no reason not to remind those that attend the race what actually happened and a small plague hidden away is insufficient for the losses suffered not just by the dead but by the hundreds injured both physically and mentally by that event

[johngee]

I wouldn't seriously disagree with what you say - merely expressing another point of view.
And if the noise, polution and health & safety lobby have their way, we'll be very lucky if we have a circuit on which to have a memorial in 50 years time.......but don't get me started on that!
Anyway, let's both enjoy the race this year and, for the first time, I'll search out the memorial that does exist and pay my respects.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by C9/89

I have never seen the plate or even where it is sighted and its this I find hard to believe (that its so hard to find).
There are memorials to all kinds of tragedies so as to people finding them distateful, thats laughable.

I suspect one's attitude to memorials is relative to one's age...

You said that the tragedy deserved a better memorial yet you haven't even seen it? I'll try to dig out some photo's. You probably also don't know that there is a memorial to a WW11 downed Canadian plane in the forest near the circuit yet there is a beautiful memorial there. We know, we pay our respects on behalf of a canadian friend in the same way we make the effort to go to the 1955 memorial.

Memorials don't make memories and they don't make knowledge and they certainly don't stop us repeating mistakes. That comes through knowledge and through people remembering. As John says there are plenty of derelict memorials to all sorts of people decaying along with the memories of those people. You could start me on one of my soapbox topics on theincreasing "Disneyfication" of grief but I'll save that.

As for saying that memorials are distasteful, I think what was said was that it was something along the lines that the ACO and the town found difficult to deal with the tragedy. That's very very different to distasteful and is so far from laughable that I doubt you can imagine. Memorials are easy to sit and look at and take photographs of when you have no real feeling for what was behind the memorial...

I can't explain clearly but I'll tell you a true story that I hope might make you understand why the lack of what (you feel) is a decent memorial is not about it being an insult, it's often a symptom of an inability to get over a catastrophic event....

I was brought up mainly by my maternal grandmother who was born in 1909. In 1939 at the start of WWII, when my grandmother was ten years younger than I am now, my grandfather volunteered to serve with the Royal Engineer's, he was (I'm told) too old for conscription and anyway was in a reserved occupation but he chose to join up so he could do his bit.

He was posted to Burma, where he spent a good number of years enduring the horrors that this particular war produced. For a large amount of that time, my grandmother and my mother had no idea if their husband and father was still alive.

He came home incredibly damaged, he had witnessed events that no man should ever witness and refused to talk about or acknowlege his experiences. He drank himself to death over the intervening years, finally dying some thirty years later on Christmas Eve 1975 when I was just six.

Do you think my Grandmother went to a war memorial? No of course she didn't, she lived through the trauma of war from the day he signed up until the day she died. She wouldn't talk about it, it was too difficult for her.

When she died I found my grandfather's medals at the back of a cupboard, to me they are recognition of his courage and bravery - perhaps a kind of memorial (to bring it back on topic); to my Nan they were just tokens that reminded her that their lives had been destroyed.

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I suspect one's attitude to memorials is relative to one's age...

You said that the tragedy deserved a better memorial yet you haven't even seen it? I'll try to dig out some photo's. You probably also don't know that there is a memorial to a WW11 downed Canadian plane in the forest near the circuit yet there is a beautiful memorial there. We know, we pay our respects on behalf of a canadian friend in the same way we make the effort to go to the 1955 memorial.

Memorials don't make memories and they don't make knowledge and they certainly don't stop us repeating mistakes. That comes through knowledge and through people remembering. As John says there are plenty of derelict memorials to all sorts of people decaying along with the memories of those people. You could start me on one of my soapbox topics on theincreasing "Disneyfication" of grief but I'll save that.

As for saying that memorials are distasteful, I think what was said was that it was something along the lines that the ACO and the town found difficult to deal with the tragedy. That's very very different to distasteful and is so far from laughable that I doubt you can imagine. Memorials are easy to sit and look at and take photographs of when you have no real feeling for what was behind the memorial...

I can't explain clearly but I'll tell you a true story that I hope might make you understand why the lack of what (you feel) is a decent memorial is not about it being an insult, it's often a symptom of an inability to get over a catastrophic event....

I was brought up mainly by my maternal grandmother who was born in 1909. In 1939 at the start of WWII, when my grandmother was ten years younger than I am now, my grandfather volunteered to serve with the Royal Engineer's, he was (I'm told) too old for conscription and anyway was in a reserved occupation but he chose to join up so he could do his bit.

He was posted to Burma, where he spent a good number of years enduring the horrors that this particular war produced. For a large amount of that time, my grandmother and my mother had no idea if their husband and father was still alive.

He came home incredibly damaged, he had witnessed events that no man should ever witness and refused to talk about or acknowlege his experiences. He drank himself to death over the intervening years, finally dying some thirty years later on Christmas Eve 1975 when I was just six.

Do you think my Grandmother went to a war memorial? No of course she didn't, she lived through the trauma of war from the day he signed up until the day she died. She wouldn't talk about it, it was too difficult for her.

When she died I found my grandfather's medals at the back of a cupboard, to me they are recognition of his courage and bravery - perhaps a kind of memorial (to bring it back on topic); to my Nan they were just tokens that reminded her that their lives had been destroyed.

Thanks, a little off the mark but thanks. I feel I've maybe touched a nerve. A rant was the last thing i expected as my comments are usually treated with little notice tbh. I accept my opinion maybe not the same as others on this subject.

I'll leave it there.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by C9/89

Thanks, a little off the mark but thanks. I feel I've maybe touched a nerve. A rant was the last thing i expected as my comments are usually treated with little notice tbh. I accept my opinion maybe not the same as others on this subject.

I'll leave it there.

Just trying to get through that sometimes it is difficult to mark things as you obviously hadn't got the point and regard the lack of what you believe to be a decent memorial as an insult....you clearly still haven't, never mind.

Maybe you can make the effort to go and see the memorial if you're going to LM this year and then perhaps express your view having stood on the track in front of it? Personally I think there is something very powerful about standing on the spot where the tragedy occured.

Thanks for the PM by the way, I'll treasure it....

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Just trying to get through that sometimes it is difficult to mark things as you obviously hadn't got the point and regard the lack of what you believe to be a decent memorial as an insult....you clearly still haven't, never mind.

Maybe you can make the effort to go and see the memorial if you're going to LM this year and then perhaps express your view having stood on the track in front of it? Personally I think there is something very powerful about standing on the spot where the tragedy occured.

Thanks for the PM by the way, I'll treasure it....

We seem to be at crossed purpose here. I dont find the lack of "decent" memorial insulting, just your comment about wanting bunting. That sort of upset me as I was trying to sympathise with the fallen, or memory of, at least and that comment made me feel very belittled.

I will go and see it this year, I'll take my Dad too. Im sure it will move me and him. We are both Mercedes fans and that will make it all the more poigniant I feel.

[Aysedasi]

I'm not getting involved in the discussions which have taken place - in my opinion, that's taking us nowhere.

But I did take this photo in 2005.




That seems a reasonably tasteful and respectful tribute to me - assuming that the plaque remains where I photographed it 5 years ago.

[Justin Moran]

Thank you Ayse, thats just fine.

I now know what Im looking for on the Friday. It will be my privelidge to pay my respects.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by C9/89

I now know what Im looking for on the Friday. It will be my privelidge to pay my respects.

Likewise and please don't take any of my previous posts on this subject to indicate any lack of empathy, sincerity and depth of feeling on the dreadful events of 1955.

[GT6]

Perhaps I feel a little ashamed that in my 26 visits to Le mans I have not noticed the plaque or really understood what happened but I am sure that the time is right for something a little more appropriate, perhaps detailing the scale of the accident, it is part of the history of Le Mans, it was perhaps the joking reference to bunting that made me react but I will make a point of finding it and stopping for a minute to remember people who like me loved the race and unfortunately paid a terrible price. Perhaps as mentioned as you get older respect for these things increases, but let us all enjoy the 2010 race and return home safely

[rdjones]

IIRC correctly it was only put up in 2005, I seem to remember they had some sort of service on the weekend between the test weekend and the race.

[Justin Moran]

I suppose that would make sense, to mark the 50th anniversary.

[Victor_RO]

Watched it today. Very chilling piece of film, especially the footage from the grandstands. And that panorama at the end... Oh my God.

[strider]

Just my opinion, but I feel some people on here owe Piglet an apology in the spirit of the thread.

[AndrewF31]

Human nature tends to point at the darkest parts of our history. How many times have you seen a new documentary or movie about World War II? And how many documentaries or movies do we see popping up about Madre Theresa or the Dalai Lama? (Or any other examples of great people you think of)

All sports have their dark stories, for example in Football, the countless stories of bleachers that collapse, not to mention the hooliganism inside and outside the stadiums (I remember clearly a Very Light firecracker that was launched from one end of the stadium to the other end and it hit a fan, killing them, in a Benfica-Sporting game for the Portuguese Cup).
In 2004 during a Benfica game, a Hungarian footballer Miklos Feher, collapsed to the ground with a heart attack and died later that night. The memorial was the retirement of his jersey number.

Memorials can be big or small, a memory or an object, and we all understand them in our own specific way. The Hollocaust memorial in Berlin is not the normal statue or stone with a plaque but a solemn piece of land of rectangular stones in an ordered fashion. A silent and discrete way of memorializing the events.

All this to say I haven't seen the movie, nor have I ever been to LM (yet!) but just like other sports, and all aspects of life, in motorsports the tireless urge to win that is part of Man, pushes us to limits we normally wouldn't go to. Or didn't man launch himself into the air to fly and eventually to fly into space?
I think I saw a reference to it in another terrific motorsports book that came out recently about the Ford-Ferrari battles of the 60s and 70s: Go Like Hell.
The Mille Miglia, I believe, was stopped after a very big tragedy.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by rdjones

IIRC correctly it was only put up in 2005, I seem to remember they had some sort of service on the weekend between the test weekend and the race.

Yes, that's my recollection too Rob.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by rdjones

IIRC correctly it was only put up in 2005, I seem to remember they had some sort of service on the weekend between the test weekend and the race.

I know I saw something on the race DVD about the unveiling of a memorial by the ACO but I can't remember which year, but that does ring a bell.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by rdjones

IIRC correctly it was only put up in 2005, I seem to remember they had some sort of service on the weekend between the test weekend and the race.

In the 1973 film "Speed Merchants" there was footage of the '72 LM24, and a similar, but larger and slightly more ornate plaque, was shown near where the accident happened.

There's probably been a few memorials near that spot for the majority of the past 55 years.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by strider

Just my opinion, but I feel some people on here owe Piglet an apology in the spirit of the thread.

I am sorry you feel that there is an excuss for the comment about Bunting on the memorial, to me that was in very bad taste and I am sure he regrets that comment, however his later comments proved that he never ment to make a joke of it and respects the memory of those people that died on that day.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by GT6

I am sorry you feel that there is an excuss for the comment about Bunting on the memorial, to me that was in very bad taste and I am sure he regrets that comment, however his later comments proved that he never ment to make a joke of it and respects the memory of those people that died on that day.

Erm I dont think you should assume gender here GT6 you may find I think that "he" as you put it may be a she actually.


I had never actually seen what had happened, I had heard of the crash of 55 and it is covered briefly in a book I have by Brian Laban but although I have been a fan of the race since as long as I can remember and attended for the last 18 years on and off, it was (im going to say it) before my time and there wasnt a lot of media on it when I was growing up.

With regard to the use of the word "Bunting" I am sure Piglet ment no intentional harm by the use of the word, though it clearly was the wrong choice of word to use in the context of such a highly charged thread. Sometimes emotions run high and people say the wrong thing, or in their opinion, say what they believe is right, only to find out others dont think the same thing and that its not right (we only have to look this week at the clerk of the COURT (not course) who felt compelled to tell a magistrate he shouldnt use the word "scum" to describe the defendants before him...nonsense in my opinion by the way))

This film was for me very informative (as I have said previously, i never knew what really happened) and the eye witness accounts were compelling I thought. My first thought at seeing Norman Dewis was excitement as a "ohhh I have met him" went through my mind, but as the documentary went on, the excitment turned sour and the thought dissapeared and was overtaken by the pure sadness at it all. I have been discussing this offline and discussing as a clerk what would you do, of course, it is very difficult to address for nowadays things are different and I can only look at it from what I know now, it was a completely different event really with regard to Race Control etc in those days (well I believe that) As we know though, and it is very hard to say it but its true, Motorsport changed because of that day and still strives to become safer and safer for both the competitor and indeed the spectator, i guess the one thing it brought home to me was the inclusion of the triangle on every race ticket that is sold in this country .....and how true the words are that are within it.


Memorials - well I shall go off subject briefly, both my mother and father (who served in Burma btw Piglet) have passed away , they were for a time without a proper headstone because of council rules with regards to that sort of stuff...anyway, the only thing they had there was just a wooden cross, nothing more, for over a year, it didnt at all take away my memories of them, it didnt take away my love for them nor that of my families. The people that they (my mum and dad) matered to still loved them and missed them and remembered them. The memorial of that 1955 Crash is not just the physical thing detailed in the picture posted before, its the memories of the families that lost lives that day the memories of the relatives that lost their loved ones that day, its the memories of those who survived that day, who thought "there but for the grace of god....." but the most important memorial to that tragic tragic day is the fact that you will (well I will) go to Le Mans this year and watch the race in relative safety, not more than 200 yrds from where that tragic event happened. Safely with some 280,000 other fans of the worlds greatest motor race, listening to Hindy and Trussers and the rest of those people who love it with a passion.
People may not see it this way but I think the fact the race goes on, the fact that it survived that awful moment in its history, the fact that we changed the rules and continue to change the rules when we look at safety and enjoyment is the best memorial to the people and events of that tragic day, for what it is worth I will make an effort to see the memorial when I go this year, and, as I sit opposite the pits I will look down and to my right and spare a thought to those in 1955

I disagree with the statement that "we dont learn by memorials" because depending on what you call a memorial, this race is proof that we do.

[Steven Humphrey]

I've just watched the film and it definately filled in a lot of the gaps in my knowledge of the accident. I was aware of the tragedy from an early age as my step dad had a big book of 'worlds greatest disasters' which featured the accident. My first visit to Le Mans was in 2005 and I'm sure there was a minutes silence over the weekend (correct me if I'm wrong) plus there was an article in the program. I wasn't aware of the fierce rivalry between Jag & Merc or the circumstances leading up to the crash, or how the crash actually happened so the film was good for that. All in all, I'm glad I watched it, though it was very upsetting at times. It does make me think of all those people who complain about not getting close enough to the track & not being able to take pictures through the catch fencing-I wonder if they would think that after seeing the film?

[johngee]

Having spoken to a number of people who saw the programme, both involved in the sport, or who know of my interest, I think the overwhelming view is that the stark simplicity of the memorial is actually deeply moving in itself and that something larger or more elaborate would, in fact, add nothing to the rememberance of the tragedy. In other words, the scale of the tragedy was so profound that no memorial can adequately capture what happened that day.
What is interesting to me is that my first visit to Le Mans was in 1969 (yes, I was very young!!!!) and the circuit, as it appeared in the archive footage was, apparently, very little changed by then.
Totally OT, does anybody know what happened to the Dutray branded clock that used to hang over the pits, when the rebuilding took place?