LM24 Waivers - Page 2

arakis · 23 Jun 2010, 13:52 (Ref:2716862)

ok now am glad their engines blew up, up until now I was convinced that the corvettes were runing fully under the regulations!!

this is plain stupid!! whats the point of giving the car that was the fastest a fuel consumption addvantige as well, and how much of the performance can be found in those waivers!

Although I love what the gt2 class has become, only porsche and ferrari will remain in my eyes true gt2 cars, all other cars will always have badge of shame on them!

Victor_RO · 23 Jun 2010, 13:55 (Ref:2716864)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

Although I love what the gt2 class has become, only porsche and ferrari will remain in my eyes true gt2 cars, all other cars will always have badge of shame on them!

BTW, I wonder how many waivers the Spyker and Aston have...

Gil Abobeleira · 23 Jun 2010, 13:56 (Ref:2716865)

Wasn't de direct injection taken away at the end of last year (and rightly so!), after protests by Porsche?

gwyllion · 23 Jun 2010, 14:18 (Ref:2716872)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Wasn't de direct injection taken away at the end of last year (and rightly so!), after protests by Porsche?

Last year Corvette ran direct injection on the 6.0 V8 and removed it before Petit Le Mans after protest from Porsche and Ferrari. However, they were promised by the ACO that they could use direct injection when they switched to the 5.5 V8 for 2010.

gwyllion · 23 Jun 2010, 14:41 (Ref:2716881)

I just checked http://www.lemans.org/iframes/24hdum...r_analysis.pdf. The Corvette stints were only 14 laps, like the other GT2 cars. So the info John Brooks got seems unreliable.

Speed-King · 23 Jun 2010, 14:51 (Ref:2716889)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

BTW, I wonder how many waivers the Spyker and Aston have...

I believe Aston don't have many waivers if any at all. I remember them being quite unhappy about what GT2 has become and them having no chance with their too-close-to-the-spirit-of-the-rules-car.

Gil Abobeleira · 23 Jun 2010, 14:56 (Ref:2716894)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Last year Corvette ran direct injection on the 6.0 V8 and removed it before Petit Le Mans after protest from Porsche and Ferrari. However, they were promised by the ACO that they could use direct injection when they switched to the 5.5 V8 for 2010.

Why? Does the road car use Direct Injection?

Sorry, I don't understand any of this contrived competition... Make those rules, then stick to them!

Maybe FIFA should change the rules of football and let France play with 12 players... Hmmmm, maybe not

gwyllion · 23 Jun 2010, 15:00 (Ref:2716896)

I believe that Spyker has a waiver which allows them to use a flat plane crank and a different firing order, but probably they have more.

gwyllion · 23 Jun 2010, 15:09 (Ref:2716905)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Why? Does the road car use Direct Injection?

Sorry, but there is nothing in the GT2 rules that says you must use the fuel injection system of the road car. Check it yourself: http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...lmgt2_2010.pdf

porman · 23 Jun 2010, 15:13 (Ref:2716907)

What would we have left if we weren't able to argue. Most of us are biased and that makes things much more interesting. Damn Corvettes!

tux1234 · 23 Jun 2010, 15:17 (Ref:2716909)

This comment will probaly cause arugments but why does it matter about waivers? Surely all that matters is we have awesome GT2 battles in the Alms, Lms etc and that we have the cars on the grid. Also just think how many the Jaguar has.....

gwyllion · 23 Jun 2010, 15:19 (Ref:2716910)

Instead of complaining about an unfair advantage for Corvette, competitors should just fit direct injection to their engine as well. Porsche already did it with the RS Spyder and uses it extensively in the road cars, the Ferrari 458 also has direct injection, and Aston Martin already use direct injection in their LMP1/GT1 engine.

arakis · 23 Jun 2010, 16:57 (Ref:2716949)

fromcovettes site, it says the car does not have direct injection, the new engine is as close to the stock car as posible, at least thats what they say.

it matters weather somone has an unfair addvantige or not, because if lets say corvtte did win Le Mans they would exploit it to the endo of this world how they beat exotics like porsche and ferrari, and that does harm to the brands of porsche and ferrari

Gil Abobeleira · 23 Jun 2010, 17:25 (Ref:2716958)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Sorry, but there is nothing in the GT2 rules that says you must use the fuel injection system of the road car. Check it yourself: http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...lmgt2_2010.pdf

Hmm..... Then, that's not a waiver

gwyllion · 23 Jun 2010, 17:42 (Ref:2716969)

... and yet last year Corvette Racing wrote:

Quote:

"We had homologated the GT2 Corvette C6.R with a 6.0-liter GM small-block V8 engine for 2008 until new rules go into effect next year," said Doug Fehan, Corvette Racing program manager. "Essentially the engine is a destroked version of the 7.0-liter GT1 engine, which had direct injection. While there is nothing in the rules that precludes direct injection, Corvette Racing was the only GT2 team using it. Some of the competitors expressed their concerns about that situation, and the sanctioning body requested that we remove the direct injection system. We agreed that if it was in the best interest of good racing and in the best interest of the series, we would honor that request."

source: http://www.corvetteracing.com/histor...tlemans2.shtml

Samoan Attorney · 24 Jun 2010, 09:11 (Ref:2717285)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I just checked http://www.lemans.org/iframes/24hdum...r_analysis.pdf. The Corvette stints were only 14 laps, like the other GT2 cars. So the info John Brooks got seems unreliable.

My information regarding the direct injection and the potential advantage it handed to the Corvette team was, as far as you can believe anything you are told in this business, correct. I did not say how, or if, Corvette exploited this feature and I was a bit busy during the race so did not keep track of the pit stops. Last weekend the WTCC Zolder got in the way, so thanks for directing us to the split times, they make interesting reading.

You are right they stopped on the button at 14 laps..................I had a look at their pit times which seemed faster than the opposition, even allowing for both #63 and #64 getting held during the second safety car period. The first 12 stops cost #63 892 seconds and #64 930 seconds.............the next best was the #89 Ferrari on 993 seconds..........and they did not get caught in the pits during a safety car (I estimate that the Vettes lost 100 seconds each as a result of that). The eventual winner #77 was on 1,193 seonds including the effect of the third safety car. The #82 was the only other car to match the Vettes............but their race ended prematurely. Corvette were making up time in the pits............one way would be to put less fuel in.............the team will know, I can't say.

Bit of a chess match, this Le Mans lark.

The Badger · 24 Jun 2010, 11:22 (Ref:2717352)

From what I just heard , seemingly the ACO said before the race , that they intended to strip down the first two chassis in GT2 class .

Why , is beyond me . As they are now planning on releasing the GT2 finishing positions in July . What a load of crap , as they should have been prepared for this , if its true about the first 2 strip downs , being known about .

Tim the Grey · 30 Jun 2010, 22:44 (Ref:2720579)

A team manager did say that the Aston had a LOT of 'help', in GT2...
I have no idea if that was in the form of waivers, etc, YMMV.

gwyllion · 25 Jul 2010, 16:10 (Ref:2732496)

Quote:

Contrary to rumors swirling around the internet, Corvette Racing’s two C6.Rs are not running with direct injection, nor have been since moving to its all-new 5.5-liter power plant at the beginning of this year. Since the road-going Corvette ZR1, which the GT-spec machine is homologated according to, is not equipped with DI, the race car cannot be as well.

source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...day-notebook1/

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 12:51 (Ref:2741341)

Didn’t this all come about because of the sudden change to GT2 rules, I mean we are working to the lowest common denominator again. Didn’t Ratel coerce the ACO into changing the future displacement rules from a max of 8 liter to 5.5 for GT2, wasn’t it true that the only car this would affect was the Corvette and Viper? I am sure Corvette Racing would love to go back to a LS7 in a GT2 Z06R and resume the ass kicking that sent Ferrari and Porsche running from GT1.

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 13:44 (Ref:2741353)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

Did’t this all come about because of the sudden change to GT2 rules, I mean we are working to the lowest common denominator again. Didn’t Ratel coerce the ACO into changing the future displacement rules from a max of 8 liter to 5.5 for GT2, wasn't’t it true that the only car this would affect was the Corvette and Viper? I am sure Corvette Racing would love to go back to a LS7 in a GT2 Z06R and resume the ass kicking that sent Ferrari and Porsche running from GT1.

?

corvette didn't send Ferrari or Porsche out of the GT1, Ferrari was never involved in gt1, they wanted to race a f50 gt1 in 1998, but the rules changed so they didn't same with porsche! if you are referring to F550 that was run by prodrive, or the F575 run by N-Technology, well those are not Ferrari Factory cars now are they, the closest thing we had in gt1 that came directly out of the factory was the MC12 and it whooped Corvettes for 6 years in a row(FIA-GT1) that is, the ACO never allowed MC12 to race,ALMS did but with straws for restrictors, and paper machete for aero.

back to the original topic, the corvette has no shortage of power in the ALMS, or a Le Mans, so I guess the ACO got the rules just right.

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 14:30 (Ref:2741367)

Corvette enters a new class and has to create a new engine to race in said class and there is all this whining about waivers? So I guess you would be Ok with it if the ACO decided that 5.5 liter was the minimum engine size allowed?

Where were those MC12 prototypes at Lemans, I guess the ACO got that one right too? There are no Ferraris in GT1; they are in GT3 where Corvette is kicking the crap out of them on a regular basis.

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 14:41 (Ref:2741371)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

Corvette enters a new class and has to create a new engine to race in said class and there is all this whining about waivers? So I guess you would be Ok with it if the ACO decided that 5.5 liter was the minimum engine size allowed?

Where were those MC12 prototypes at Lemans, I guess the ACO got that one right too? There are no Ferraris in GT1; they are in GT3 where Corvette is kicking the crap out of them on a regular basis.

I agree with you on all points

but, there are no factory built, or supported ferraris in GT3, i agree the mc12was not a fully legal gt1 car, but like I said it was the closest thing to a factory build/suported car in gt1.

I agree that there shouldn't be a size limitation in gt2, but corvette didn't change their engine because of the size regulations but because of production based regulation, the 6l engine was not production based, GT2 is a production based class. (although i am prety sure they sould have bulit 6l version if there were no 5.5l cap)

I think the problem is, that the current regulations favor larger engines over smaller ones, wile the HP is regulated at about the same level, the torque curves on bigger engines are better, So my guess is that the 5.5 liter cap is to ensure similar engine performance.

also the 47 waivers is still an uncomfirmed rumer! while for the BMW its a fact

--they didn;t have to create a new engine but simply to modify the road going one, as all other cars in the classs did, Ferrari original engine is 4.3l, porsches 3.8

kyoung · 8 Aug 2010, 15:00 (Ref:2741378)

There are no factory supported cars of any make in GT3.

The Z06 LS7 is a production based engine that could not be used because of the new regs, so yes they did change engines to meet the new regs. There are no current Corvette production engines smaller than 6.2 liters. So should manufacturers design to their philosophy or to regulations, like I said, what if the minimum was 5.5 liters, would Ferrari and Porsche object?

So you are admitting that the larger engine philosophy is superior?

The BMW is what it is, it could not compete in its road going form, but the Corvette could.

arakis · 8 Aug 2010, 15:38 (Ref:2741389)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoung

There are no factory supported cars of any make in GT3.

The Z06 LS7 is a production based engine that could not be used because of the new regs, so yes they did change engines to meet the new regs. There are no current Corvette production engines smaller than 6.2 liters. So should manufacturers design to their philosophy or to regulations, like I said, what if the minimum was 5.5 liters, would Ferrari and Porsche object?

So you are admitting that the larger engine philosophy is superior?

The BMW is what it is, it could not compete in its road going form, but the Corvette could.

LS7 was not a production based engine, but a full blown race engine, the 5.5l is a production based engine, read up on it on corvetteracing.com

under the current regulations, yes it is favorable to have a larger engine, but that is only because under the current regulations the bad stuff that comes along with a larger engine doesent count, the minimum weight is fixed, so if the minimum weight is fixed so should the engine size as well! I am preaty sure ferrari or porsche had nothing to do with 5.5l cut. they did however object to corvette using an racing engine, and a dfi system with the production car doesent have.

BTW under the current regulations the maximum engine size is 8l, so i don't see your point. my guess corvette chose 5.5l configuration because they figuared they could get more hp with that config,